D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

[soviet]

But Rain of Steel didn't give you an attack. It was automatic damage to everyone around you. Didn't matter if their AC was 10 or 30.

Damage on a miss was not an uncommon thing in 4e.

Or take Come and Get It ... I'm surrounded by wolves and I insult them so they attack me no matter what the situation? How do I do that? You're so lame your chew toy is mashed potatoes so you don't hurt yourself? Your mother was a Chihuahua and your father smelt of elderberries?

It doesn't say it has to be an insult.

How about: I step forward, lock eyes with what appears to be the alpha wolf, and roar out a challenge.

Or: I pretend to stumble, showing that I am vulnerable and tempting them to surround me for what they think will be an easy kill.

Or: I loom threateningly over the wolf cubs, making the adult wolves swarm me to protect them.

 

[Oofta]

Damage on a miss was not an uncommon thing in 4e.

But it still required an attack roll and could be considered a glancing blow. Rain of Steel did not require an attack roll, it was full damage no matter what.

It doesn't say it has to be an insult.

How about: I step forward, lock eyes with what appears to be the alpha wolf, and roar out a challenge.

Okay, you roar out a challenge. So? As many as 8 wolves are attacking my fighter. They obviously can't understand you, you're already aggressive. Yelling at them isn't any more challenging than trying to crush their head in with a hammer. It changes nothing.

Or: I pretend to stumble, showing that I am vulnerable and tempting them to surround me for what they think will be an easy kill.

Sure, give me a deception check and let's see if they buy it. If you have a whirl-wind type attack option you can then use it.

Or: I loom threateningly over the wolf cubs, making the adult wolves swarm me to protect them.

What wolf pups? If there are any and I move over to threaten them I don't need RoS.

But let's say it's not wolves. Its unthinking constructs or mindless zombies that have been commanded to attack the wizard. Not only do they not understand you, they're now pulled (remember it doesn't require movement on their part) to you. The power fulfills a very small niche scenario and then lets it apply across the board. A different power that pushes all adjacent enemies back? That's at least something we see in movies, but it isn't a great benefit for the guy who is supposed to aggro enemies which is a very video game centric concept.

You can paper over rules all you want, it doesn't change their core nature.

 

[soviet]

But let's say it's not wolves. Its unthinking constructs or mindless zombies that have been commanded to attack the wizard. Not only do they not understand you, they're now pulled (remember it doesn't require movement on their part) to you.

I draw Skulltaker [my magic sword that has various anti-undead properties]. It glows with a fierce hatred of the undead and the zombies are drawn towards it in hatred.

I step into the space between the constructs and the wizard and block it. If they want to get to him they've got to go through me first!

 

[Oofta]

I draw Skulltaker [my magic sword that has various anti-undead properties]. It glows with a fierce hatred of the undead and the zombies are drawn towards it in hatred.

I step into the space between the constructs and the wizard and block it. If they want to get to him they've got to go through me first!

So now you need a magic sword? Rain of Steel allows you to move, it doesn't force movement of multiple enemies to you? Which, again, could be up to 8 enemies. I think I calculated once that if you were flying it could be 26 enemies. Still doesn't change that it does auto damage no matter the target's AC. Regardless, you're really stretching.

 

[James Gasik]

Pyromancer fire dragon sorcerer etc. you also keep approaching this as if raw percentage of possible monsters a gm could use is equally as relevant as monsters commonly seen actually used in play, that's a bizarre bit of logic. The trouble with how you conceded is that you also did it in a way that implies swarms and such are going to be a significant percentage of actual encounters seen at the table with any regularity.

Here's the thing though, every game and every player's experience is different. I've faced lots of swarms (they suck in 3e) and my DM's often feel that the best solution to not having to explain a dungeon ecology is to fill it with constructs and undead. Adventures will use whatever critters make sense, and classic pre-written adventures tend to have a mix of monsters. So while you think swarms, constructs, and elementals are rare, they could be commonly used in a game.

Having those monsters exist as a flat-out bane to one class and not others is bad design, because even if there's an equal amount of critters that other classes are weak to, so as to give everyone and equal amount of spotlight time (and an equal amount of "trying to figure out how to be relevant time") you as designer have no idea what classes are in play. You can say "well, obviously the DM will balance this" but that's a pretty big ask, and it doesn't always happen in the wild. There's a reason they eventually made alternate class features to let you deal half sneak attack damage to these things- Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape (though it requires flanking, which has it's own problems), Death's Ruin from Complete Champion (Undead only), spells like Golem Strike, Grave Strike, and Vine Strike (which our poor Rogue would have to have scrolls or wands for if he can't count on Mr. Wizard to save his butt, and assuming he could afford skilling up Use Magic Device), plus Greater Truedeath Crystals, Greater Demolition Crystals, and Deathstrike Bracers from the Magic Item Compendium (which presume that said book is in use, or that our poor Rogue can access/afford such).

So maybe in your experience there was value in the limitations on Sneak Attack, but I just didn't see it. It didn't help that Rogue also had no niche protection in 3.5, so you could easily replace one with a class that brought other kinds of utility to play, from Factotums to Skulks to Beguilers.

 

[James Gasik]

Pity the martials then, with damage reduction/immunity to bludgeoning, piericing and slashing non-magical weapons.

I do! And I should point out that Rogues are also martials!

 

[soviet]

So now you need a magic sword? Rain of Steel allows you to move, it doesn't force movement of multiple enemies to you? Which, again, could be up to 8 enemies. I think I calculated once that if you were flying it could be 26 enemies. Still doesn't change that it does auto damage no matter the target's AC. Regardless, you're really stretching.

My actual 4e fighter had an actual magic sword with anti-undead properties called Skulltaker. All of your examples have been white room hypothetical fights with no purpose or context. I presume in actuality the characters have some magic items or reasons for being there.

My examples were for Come and Get It not Rain of Steel. Rain of Steel is already explained by damage on a miss.

These are trivial exercises of imagination that any RPGer should be able to do.

 

[mamba]

I step into the space between the constructs and the wizard and block it. If they want to get to him they've got to go through me first!

that does not match up with the construct being drawn to you…

These are trivial exercises of imagination that any RPGer should be able to do.

clearly one of us failed at it then

 

[soviet]

that does not match up with the construct being drawn to you…

They've been commanded to attack the wizard. I am between them and the wizard.

 

[James Gasik]

My actual 4e fighter had an actual magic sword with anti-undead properties called Skulltaker. All of your examples have been white room hypothetical fights with no purpose or context. I presume in actuality the characters have some magic items or reasons for being there.

My examples were for Come and Get It not Rain of Steel. Rain of Steel is already explained by damage on a miss.

These are trivial exercises of imagination that any RPGer should be able to do.

Sure, but you can see how "this power just works" without any lines of interaction or engagement can have issues. And it's not like we're done with such abilities- a Wolf Totem Barbarian in 5e grants advantage to his allies when they attack something adjacent to him. How? Why? Weird Angry Totem Magic, I guess.

If Come and Get It or Rain of Steel were written as spells in another edition, a lot of people would go "huh, cool" and accept that they work. Magic doesn't always need to offer saves, checks, or attack rolls to do it's thing. But historically, non-magic does, and the issue with the Martial Power Source is that people assumed it was "non-magic, just badassery manifest". So these powers are jarring if the Martial Power source is magic, and if it is, then that means the Fighter is now a magician, which, pick any thread, lol, you'll find a lot of people who don't want a "magic Fighter".

I'm not saying they should have designed these powers differently. A big problem for 4e was that many people expected it to be the same old D&D and were confused by the fact it was now more like Earthdawn or Exalted.