D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

[ECMO3]

I tend to dislike anything that pigeonholes martials even further.

Ironically the new Monk actually favors casters who dip it more than anything else.

So yes, if left unchanged, the new Monk class will make the game substantially more unbalanced between the optimizers who are mostly casters and those who want to play single-class non-magic Fighters, Rogues or Barbarians.

 

[Kurotowa]

Even on a single class build, where multiclassing is not allowed you can both dodge and attack every single turn starting from 1st level without using any ki at all. This blows away every other build out there at 1st level and it doesn't get any better. The only thing that happens is as you level you can work some ki in to work in to disengage too in addition to your attack and dodge, or at higher levels you can use a ki to make the attack a stunning strike or make it a multiattack and disengage with your dodge. All the way to level 20 though you can dodge and make one attack completely resource free.

I'm going to ignore all the multiclass doom mongering because multiclassing is not and never has been balanced, and the game cannot realistically be balanced around it. So let's focus on this.

D&D combats are a race to 0 HP, and trading multiple attacks for a Dodge is just losing slower. It's useful in some niche situations, but it doesn't defend against anything that forces a Save and it doesn't help you end a fight sooner. It only looks good in white room 1v1 combat sims against monsters that only use physical attacks. I'm not at all convinced that it's a major threat to game balance.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ironically the new Monk actually favors casters who dip it more than anything else.

So yes, if left unchanged, the new Monk class will make the game substantially more unbalanced between the optimizers who are mostly casters and those who want to play single-class non-magic Fighters, Rogues or Barbarians.

Doesn’t seem that impressive. As long as level 1 cleric still gives medium armor and shields then it’s really tough to beat cleric 1 as a caster dip from an optimization perspective.

 

[ECMO3]

I'm going to ignore all the multiclass doom mongering because multiclassing is not and never has been balanced, and the game cannot realistically be balanced around it. So let's focus on this.

D&D combats are a race to 0 HP, and trading multiple attacks for a Dodge is just losing slower. It's useful in some niche situations, but it doesn't defend against anything that forces a Save and it doesn't help you end a fight sooner. It only looks good in white room 1v1 combat sims against monsters that only use physical attacks. I'm not at all convinced that it's a major threat to game balance.

This is not true. You are not looking at the numbers.

In the old Monk, mathematically the best action in combat when not using ki was generally the attack action. In the new Monk the best action is generally the dodge action. In tier 1 you are not trading multiple attacks, you are trading 1 attack and you are upping your effective AC up to about where a Plate and Shield fighter with defense fighting style is .... and Plate is not even available at that level.

You are not "losing slower" because the combat power of the Monk at low levels is on par with other classes when making a single attack, which it can do while dodging without using any ki at all. At higher levels the power is in stunning strike, which it can again do and because there is not an attack action necessary you can choose on the fly - make your bonus action attack, if it lands use stunning strike. If that lands then make a multi attack. If that does not land then dodge.

This affects the numbers greatly because your extra attack action is being used when you have advantage and when the chance to hit will drive the multi-attack damage higher. When you don't have that advantage you remain extremely resilient and difficult to hit or target with a dex save spell. You make that choice informed as to whether your attacks will be at advantage. With the increased number of ki you get from metabolism this can be your basic tactic once you get to 6th level and you will probably never run out of ki while it matters doing it this way.

That is admitedly the "white room". Outside of the whiteroom though, I think you have this backwards. In real play the "doorway dodge" is often better than attacking even for a high DPR tank type class like a Fighter or Paladin. Now put in a character who can doorway dodge AND can also attack every turn.

 

[ECMO3]

As long as level 1 cleric still gives medium armor and shields then it’s really tough to beat cleric 1 as a caster dip from an optimization perspective.

Not when you consider uncanny metabolism and being able to both dodge and disengage regularly in combat as a bonus action on a 2-level dip.

The dodge is what is a big deal here, because it effectively stacks with unarmored defense (or mage armor) and shield. It also makes spells like Fear or abilities like Hypnotic Gaze much more effective and viable because they don't put your Wizard at risk.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not when you consider uncanny metabolism and being able to both dodge and disengage regularly in combat as a bonus action on a 2-level dip.

The dodge is what is a big deal here, because it stacks with unarmored defense and shield. It also makes spells like Fear or abilities like Hypnotic Gaze much more effective because of the disengage aspect.

It also slows your slot progression significantly, not to mention your spells drop a full spell level. Your AC is much worse than the monk, etc.

I’m not saying the monk MC is bad, but there’s alot of downsides to it compared to other options.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It also slows your slot progression significantly, not to mention your spells drop a full spell level. Your AC is much worse than the monk, etc.

I’m not saying the monk MC is bad, but there’s alot of downsides to it compared to other options.

I 100% agree.

While I think the monk needs some toning down from the UA version,
I really don't fear casters being buffed by taking monk levels.

Wisdom casters get good armor anyway. Wizards won't benefit as much from wisdom based bonuses.
You won't see the dodge + attack action in play, because a caster wants to use their qction to cast a spell. Best from far away, not within melee range.
And the caster reaction can as well be spent on the new blade ward.

And all of that on top of losing a full spell level.

I think optimizers are shooring themself in the foot by multiclassing monk and wizard. For someone not interested in optimizing it looks like a cool combination though.

 

[Parmandur]

I 100% agree.

While I think the monk needs some toning down from the UA version,
I really don't fear casters being buffed by taking monk levels.

Wisdom casters get good armor anyway. Wizards won't benefit as much from wisdom based bonuses.
You won't see the dodge + attack action in play, because a caster wants to use their qction to cast a spell. Best from far away, not within melee range.
And the caster reaction can as well be spent on the new blade ward.

And all of that on top of losing a full spell level.

I think optimizers are shooring themself in the foot by multiclassing monk and wizard. For someone not interested in optimizing it looks like a cool combination though.

Never saw all that many armored Dwarven Wizards running around outside white room scenarios after 2014 ..

 

[Clint_L]

Although optimizers are a valid subset of players, I think they're a pretty small minority. Given the overwhelmingly positive reaction to monks, I don't see nerfing them because of fears that wizards or sorcerers will take a 2 level dip. I also don't think it would be that great. Yes, they can take the dodge action plus an unarmed strike bonus action at level 1 (so 6.5 average damage on a hit); that doesn't seem gamebreaking. A two level dip would allow a wizard, say, to take dodge/disengage as a bonus action twice before running out of discipline points; again, that doesn't seem gamebreaking.

The point that you can dodge and attack resource free all the way from level 1-20 is true but not that great. If you are doing it resource free, all you are getting is dodge plus one unarmed strike, even at level 20 (average 11.5 damage at level 20). Which I think we can agree is not exactly terrifying.

Stunning strike got nerfed to one attempt/turn in the UA, which I think was needed. The ability I think is actually overturned is deflect attack; since reactions are generally wasted this becomes almost a free, powerful damage reduction.

I very much disagree that monks are currently fine! Player consensus on the monk class has been very clear since 2014.

 

[ECMO3]

Wisdom casters get good armor anyway.
You won't see the dodge + attack action in play, because a caster wants to use their qction to cast a spell.

No on a caster you wouldn't unless you were trying tom maintain concentration. You will see action and then use a ki to dodge and disengage.
There is a difference between good armor and being able to dodge and disingage repeatedly, while taking a full action and having a good AC. With a 13 Wisdom, 16 dex and Mage Armor I am at 16 before dodging. When dodging and adding shield I will be better than anyone else in the party.

A 2nd level Monk is going to get 8 ki a day, to spend over about 20-25 rounds of combat a day and that is if you are playing 2 short rests and 6 combats. If you play fewer combats it is fewer rounds to divide up that ki.

And the caster reaction can as well be spent on the new blade ward.

And being able to dodge stacks with this.