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DMG II v Advanced Game Master's Guide ?
- Thread starter Kichwas
- Start date
haiiro
First Post
They're both useful. 
There's not a lot of overlap -- what overlap there is, is in the sections on player types and gaming styles. Apart from that, their advice heads in different directions (with similar goals), and both offer new rules and ideas that don't overlap at all.
I've been GMing for a long time, and I learned things from both books -- I'm glad to have them both on my shelf. In terms of utility for non-D&D gaming, they both have a fantasy slant, but a lot of useful info for any genre.
I'd say the DMG II is a bit more useful overall, and they're probably about even on utility for other genres. There's more D&D content in the DMG II than the AGMG, but the DMG II is also a larger book -- there's more of everything, not just that stuff.
There's not a lot of overlap -- what overlap there is, is in the sections on player types and gaming styles. Apart from that, their advice heads in different directions (with similar goals), and both offer new rules and ideas that don't overlap at all.
I've been GMing for a long time, and I learned things from both books -- I'm glad to have them both on my shelf. In terms of utility for non-D&D gaming, they both have a fantasy slant, but a lot of useful info for any genre.
I'd say the DMG II is a bit more useful overall, and they're probably about even on utility for other genres. There's more D&D content in the DMG II than the AGMG, but the DMG II is also a larger book -- there's more of everything, not just that stuff.
I was thinking about starting a head-to-head comparison thread, since I have both, but I'm just as happy to chime in here.
DMG II and Advanced Gamemaster's Guide are both good books. There is a good deal of overlap. AGG, I think, is aimed at slightly more experienced DMs. DMG II really is an extension of the core DMG, in many ways; AGG has some of that content, but also touches on some of the variant types of rules like Unearthed Arcana.
DMG II begins with a discussion of Gamer personalities, and the sorts of issues that can come up because of them. So, too, does the AGG. Both offer advice on table rules and how a DM/GM can better present information. These sections contain advice applicable to any game system, even if sometimes phrased as D&D examples. Of the two, AGM spends more time on "timesaving tricks at the table" (such as Initiative cards, a photocopyable set of which are provided in the book, and making area templates for area effects), while DMG II spends more space on interaction issues. Both talk about effective presentation, and adding drama.
Both books also address running adventures, and touch on adapting published adventures to your needs.
AGG and DMG II both provide a selection of additional rules.
DMG II has a lot of material on Cities .. handling crowds in them, owning a business in them, the Mob template for when crowds turn violent, the administration of justice, and finally the City of Saltmarsh as a fully-detailed example of putting it all together.
More of AGG's rules are Combat oriented (Bushwhacking, Class Dodge Bonuses, Critical Hits that cause special damage effects, and new conditions like "groggy" {for when you just woke up in that nighttime raid}), but not all of them are. Experience debt, for example, prevents you from losing levels due to XP costs of various types; instead, these amounts become a deficit applied against your future earnings.
AGG talks a bit about both High and Low/No Magic campaigns (a big plus in its favor), the ways standard D&D has to be adjusted to fit those variants, and provides some discussion on the pros and cons of different methods (including the spellcasters-must-evenly-multiclass approach).
AGG also has a few of the little details that made the 1st Ed DMG such a valued resource: tables of "decor". 40 Plot points ... 40 Battle scenes ... "Urban Set Dressing"... "Wilderness Set Dressing".
Both books touch on Mentoring and Apprenticeship. AGG spends all of its time on Mentor rules, and how they affect the PC. DMG II spends equal amounts on Mentors and Apprentices, as well as how a PC can begin as an Apprentice and become a Mentor. Both takes seem pretty good, so it is just a matter of which approach fits better into your campaign. You could also meld them a bit, and use some of the AGG Mentor details with the DMG II setup.
Both books deal with NPCs, but in different ways. The DMG II is more mechanics-focused, giving advice on how to determine the appropriate level, gear, and fees for a hireling so s/he is competent to help the PCs without being a cheap bypass. This leads into some example Complex NPCs, presenting stock NPCs that have 2 or more classes (and/or Prestige Classes). It also discusses how and why to design a Prestige Class, especially offering tips on how to decide if it is balanced. By contrast, the AGG offers 1st-20th level lists of the PC classes from the Advanced Players' Manual, with detailed workups of 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels for 1 of each.
In the end, I think both are useful. DMG II is, as I said, more of an extension to the core DMG. It covers material that every DM/GM will find useful to have around, though experienced DMs/GMs have most likely already come up with their own answers to the same questions -- in that sense, it is more newbie-friendly. AGG does more to address campaigns with alternate levels of magic -- there is a good-sized section on special-though-non-magical materials, for example, that allows DR to play more of a role in low-magic or no-magic campaigns (where the standard DR would otherwise become vastly more powerful).
There is a lot more in each book that I have not touched on. Despite the occasional overlap, I am pleased to have both.
DMG II and Advanced Gamemaster's Guide are both good books. There is a good deal of overlap. AGG, I think, is aimed at slightly more experienced DMs. DMG II really is an extension of the core DMG, in many ways; AGG has some of that content, but also touches on some of the variant types of rules like Unearthed Arcana.
DMG II begins with a discussion of Gamer personalities, and the sorts of issues that can come up because of them. So, too, does the AGG. Both offer advice on table rules and how a DM/GM can better present information. These sections contain advice applicable to any game system, even if sometimes phrased as D&D examples. Of the two, AGM spends more time on "timesaving tricks at the table" (such as Initiative cards, a photocopyable set of which are provided in the book, and making area templates for area effects), while DMG II spends more space on interaction issues. Both talk about effective presentation, and adding drama.
Both books also address running adventures, and touch on adapting published adventures to your needs.
AGG and DMG II both provide a selection of additional rules.
DMG II has a lot of material on Cities .. handling crowds in them, owning a business in them, the Mob template for when crowds turn violent, the administration of justice, and finally the City of Saltmarsh as a fully-detailed example of putting it all together.
More of AGG's rules are Combat oriented (Bushwhacking, Class Dodge Bonuses, Critical Hits that cause special damage effects, and new conditions like "groggy" {for when you just woke up in that nighttime raid}), but not all of them are. Experience debt, for example, prevents you from losing levels due to XP costs of various types; instead, these amounts become a deficit applied against your future earnings.
AGG talks a bit about both High and Low/No Magic campaigns (a big plus in its favor), the ways standard D&D has to be adjusted to fit those variants, and provides some discussion on the pros and cons of different methods (including the spellcasters-must-evenly-multiclass approach).
AGG also has a few of the little details that made the 1st Ed DMG such a valued resource: tables of "decor". 40 Plot points ... 40 Battle scenes ... "Urban Set Dressing"... "Wilderness Set Dressing".
Both books touch on Mentoring and Apprenticeship. AGG spends all of its time on Mentor rules, and how they affect the PC. DMG II spends equal amounts on Mentors and Apprentices, as well as how a PC can begin as an Apprentice and become a Mentor. Both takes seem pretty good, so it is just a matter of which approach fits better into your campaign. You could also meld them a bit, and use some of the AGG Mentor details with the DMG II setup.
Both books deal with NPCs, but in different ways. The DMG II is more mechanics-focused, giving advice on how to determine the appropriate level, gear, and fees for a hireling so s/he is competent to help the PCs without being a cheap bypass. This leads into some example Complex NPCs, presenting stock NPCs that have 2 or more classes (and/or Prestige Classes). It also discusses how and why to design a Prestige Class, especially offering tips on how to decide if it is balanced. By contrast, the AGG offers 1st-20th level lists of the PC classes from the Advanced Players' Manual, with detailed workups of 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels for 1 of each.
In the end, I think both are useful. DMG II is, as I said, more of an extension to the core DMG. It covers material that every DM/GM will find useful to have around, though experienced DMs/GMs have most likely already come up with their own answers to the same questions -- in that sense, it is more newbie-friendly. AGG does more to address campaigns with alternate levels of magic -- there is a good-sized section on special-though-non-magical materials, for example, that allows DR to play more of a role in low-magic or no-magic campaigns (where the standard DR would otherwise become vastly more powerful).
There is a lot more in each book that I have not touched on. Despite the occasional overlap, I am pleased to have both.
IronWolf
blank
I cannot speak about the Advanced Gamemaster's Guide as I do not own it nor have I read it. But I just got my copy of the DMGII today and so far it looks like it is going to be right up my alley. Player personalities, city information and more. Looking forward to really getting some time and sitting down and reading it.
Psion
Adventurer
DMG II is a little thicker.
As for which is more useful, here's a quick tally, by my own reckoning:
DMG II Useful
As for which is more useful, here's a quick tally, by my own reckoning:
DMG II Useful
- Play styles and player traits (though it will be old hat if you have Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering)
- Other GM advice
- Archetypal Locations (love this sort of stuff)
- Political plot hooks & courts (though some of this is old hat)
- City and town plot hooks
- 100 instant NPC agendas
- Magic events (but R&R's ritual system fills this niche for me pretty well)
- Saltmarsh (well done and useful)
- Contacts (sort of)
- NPC unique abilities (sometimes the D&D system can make things a little too predictable.)
- Business rules
- Designing prestige classes (we've seen it before, but IMO it's essential)
- Signature traits
- Bonded magic items
- Magic locations (iffy - not sure if I'd use it. Too dependant upon PC interest.)
- Synergy abilities - just barely said to myself "I wish there was something like this." That's usually a good sign
- Magic Item Templates (iffy, but used right can have interesting flavor)
- Extra traps (sorry, dull and I already own Song & Silence and Traps & Treachery I&II. Book of Challenges is much better IMO.)
- Miniatures & Battle Grid Notes
- Encounter Tables
- Campaign Building (unless you are really a basic GM)
- Town minor NPCs & establishments
- Modeling law and justice (at one time I would have dug this; I have no time for this level of emulation before, and I certainly don't keep the last 100 years worth of transitions for every city.)
- Complex NPCs (one or two might be useful. They need the DMG 3.0 ready to run stock NPCs back; Ultimate NPCs also fills this niche much better.)
- Mentor/apprentice rules - interesting idea, not compelling enough.
- PC Organizations - don't think I needed rules or guideance here
- Guilds - likewise.
- Teamwork (blah)
- Artifacts (again, old hat)
- Sensitive Subjects - too many GMs are NOT sensitive to their player's, um, sensitivities.
- Knowing your group / play style - similar to DMG II, but might be fresher perspective if you have read Robin's Laws before.
- Combat rules variants - esp. class dodge bonus
- Speeding play
- Hex based movement - my preference for outdoors (iffy, though, cause it's old hat)
- Magic rules - esp metamagic points and self limited spells.
- Preparing adventures
- 40 basic plots/40 fight scenses/100 urban details / 100 wilderness details
- Simplified NPCs
- 40 campaign themes
- Cosmology choices
- Tweaking campaign rules (feats/bonus points)
- Designing feats & PRCs
- PC power level variants
- Ability score generation variants
- Training variants
- Innate abilities - AT LAST! Lots of great ways to reward players without magical bling.
- Levin (power component rules done justice, and eschewing the permanent "butcher shop" mentality.)
- Sovereign materials - appeal to the munchkin in me
- New special qualities - farms out those nifty abilities formerly locked up in special weapons.
- Inconveninces
- Mystic Locales & Holy sites
- Initiative cards (though I already use these)
- World Design - old hat, for the most part
- Play environment - old hat
- Fortune points - sorry, AFAIAC, action points are the standard
- Designing antagonists and allies (might be useful for newer GMs)
- APM NPCs (which I don't use any of except eldritch weaver)
- Character backgrounds (would never use these)
- Calendars and events (too simple, wouldn't use)
- Advancement options (none struck my fancy)
- Item characteristics
Psion
Adventurer
Artifact creation rules in AGMG - Long story short, it's mostly a ballpark for how good you have to be to make an artifact. The costs are steep, so it's not likely something that you would munch out and do. It gives the GM a lot more latitude in defining the capabilities of the artifact than the magic item system, though, so might be a silver bullet if you are looking for something special.
By way of comparison, the Artifact material in DMG II is more campaign oriented, so they are somewhat complimentary.
By way of comparison, the Artifact material in DMG II is more campaign oriented, so they are somewhat complimentary.
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
So let's say for example:
I have a group of PCs that are being mentored by a group of social outcasts. One of which is a powerful fiend intend on getting back his home in say Vangal's Abyss. In order to do so, he needs a bunch of power compontents along with regular stuff.
Does the AGMG help "define" that or even refine it?
I have a group of PCs that are being mentored by a group of social outcasts. One of which is a powerful fiend intend on getting back his home in say Vangal's Abyss. In order to do so, he needs a bunch of power compontents along with regular stuff.
Does the AGMG help "define" that or even refine it?
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