A few things I really like about WFRP

[Distracted DM]

I played WHFRPG 1e+2e a good amount- I must say that the removal of resource management definitely sounds appealing after running 5e 99% of the time for almost a decade, but I have to imagine that accrued wounds/injuries are themselves a form of attrition... D&D and those like it just takes this to an extreme, though the extent varies by system/edition.

Surely wounds aren't all recoverable between battles? There's a limit to healing poultices etc still?

BUT the "no spell limit" definitely has an appeal. I'd say I could consider Shadowdark but even there I believe with enough poor rolls your wizard can be bereft of spells until recovered.

 

[TheSword]

The disparity in power level between characters is a major issue I've run into with the game. On one hand, you can have a knight who starts with a horse and full armor, fantastic weapons, plenty of coin, and social standing to get out of many jams. Another character literally didn't have enough coin to go on the adventure (The Enemy Within).
The worst part of this issue is how the rules attempt to sucker new players into random character creation by handing out what is ultimately a paltry amount of XP. In every situation, you're better served by taking a good class, good attributes, etc.

As I said, it isn’t symmetrical. If your players are bothered if one player is richer or posher than another then it’s probably not the game for them.

It works when you lean into it. The brass tier agitator sleeps in the common room (or in the barn) persuades the innkeeper to let him stay by performing a task or the squire subs him. Different NPCs will happily gossip with them when they wouldn’t dream of talking freely to the knight. Meanwhile the squire (first level of knight) gets to ride their horse - pay stabling and maintenance for the privelage. The disparity generates tension and develops character in a way that typical D&D doesn’t. WFRP 4 really embarrassed the Roleplay Pilar.

Regarding the idea of Knight being an amazing class. It does start with a chain shirt which is going to give them 2 armour on their body and arms which is useful. They also get a riding horse, but that isn’t a trained warhorse. It’s going to be panicking if a blackpowder weapon goes off, it will also require food and stabling. The squire has to maintain their status by spending appropriate money on lodgings, food and clothing and if they don’t their status starts to drop because they slumming it for too long. Lastly they start with a sword and shield but the skills the squire can develop are in cavalry weapons which they don’t have yet. So you also will need to buy one which will cost as much if not more than that chain shirt. They only easily develop their melee (basic) later in their careers at tier 2. They’re then developing two melee skills when another class might only develop one. In summary - knights are good, but not better at fighting than most other warrior classes and their status and trappings come with a cost.

Unless of course you want to hand wave all that which is fine for groups not interested in it.

 

[TheSword]

I played WHFRPG 1e+2e a good amount- I must say that the removal of resource management definitely sounds appealing after running 5e 99% of the time for almost a decade, but I have to imagine that accrued wounds/injuries are themselves a form of attrition... D&D and those like it just takes this to an extreme, though the extent varies by system/edition.

Surely wounds aren't all recoverable between battles? There's a limit to healing poultices etc still?

BUT the "no spell limit" definitely has an appeal. I'd say I could consider Shadowdark but even there I believe with enough poor rolls your wizard can be bereft of spells until recovered.

A large amount depends on if you have someone with the heal skill - which is highly recommended. They are going to be healing Int Bonus + SLs on a heal check. We found even with a very paltry healer that most wounds were taken care of. It was a running joke that @GuyBoy ’s character the Witch Hunter Luchs, caused more pain with his needle and thread then he ever did with hot irons. I regularly commented on how ham fisted luchs managed to sew crooked with a failed heal check that still restored a few wounds.

You also recover on a rest by making an endurance check and get back T Bonus + SL

Between these two im not sure our 35 session Enemy Within group every got into anything close to a death spiral. The ability to deflect a crit at the cost of a point of armour in that location also keeps players physically healthy. In another campaign early on, a wizard player got into a scrap and an unlucky crit gave him a cracked skull which would have been debilitating. He spent one of his Fate points to side step it.

I remember Luchs being pretty injured towards the end of an assault on a castle and he had to hang back and stick to using his pistol. It added more drama as it meant the other two characters kept between him and the foe.

The new group is going to be playing in a sandbox mash up of Dragonheist, Keys from the Golden Vault, Curse of the Crimson Throne and Dungeon of the Mad Mage. It will be interesting to see how the increased combat of say a trip into Undermountain will affect things.

 

[TheSword]

The disparity in power level between characters is a major issue I've run into with the game. On one hand, you can have a knight who starts with a horse and full armor, fantastic weapons, plenty of coin, and social standing to get out of many jams. Another character literally didn't have enough coin to go on the adventure (The Enemy Within).
The worst part of this issue is how the rules attempt to sucker new players into random character creation by handing out what is ultimately a paltry amount of XP. In every situation, you're better served by taking a good class, good attributes, etc.

As you say it’s a small amount of XP as a reward to those willing to leave it in the lap of the gods. It about as useful as a chain shirt though

No suckering going on. Nobody is made to do anything and the character creation makes it clear you can just pick. I do think that most classes have something going for them and the distinction between good and bad classes isn’t as obvious as you think.

 

[MNblockhead]

On a side note there are a few ways a character who isn’t specialized in combat can make a difference. Just by being involved. They can grant +20 or +40 to the attack roll by being the second or third engaged (or benefit from it themselves) which is pretty big in a d100 system. They can also fight defensively which gives them a +20 bonus to defensive rolls. If they win they are building advantage for their side even if they don’t do much damage. Alternatively they can assess the encounter using Intuition or another appropriate skill to build quite a bit of advantage depending on how good the roll is.

The other nice thing is that most of these things aren’t gated behind class or talents. For instance someone with a bow or crossbow taking up both hands could use it as an improvised weapon to defend with potentially giving the attacker a thwack on lucky roll. Not as good as a sword obviously but the visual of that crossbow stock smashing someone’s nose in is a great image. In D&D that would be limited to a special subclass but in WFRP anyone can have a go at it.

There are talents, but these mostly make you better at doing things instead of unlocking things. Mostly because there are some talents that unlock maneuvers like fighting two handed or disarming but because of training, anyone can learn these given specific time, money and XP.

Even moreso if you use the Group Advantage rules from Up In Arms. I much prefer the Group Advantage rules over advantage in the Core rules. Makes for dynamic, fun combats where everyone can contribute, even if it it is not through soaking up wounds and hitting hard.

 

[MNblockhead]

I love that WFRP4e is getting some love in ENWorld. Just started a campaign in January.

I'd like to give a call out to the excellent Foundry game systems and modules from Cubicle 7. It really helped me getting into running WFRP quickly and was the deciding factor between WFRP and DCC Dying Earth for me. The crunchier combat and great random tables are fun, but can slow things down at the table, especially with a less experienced DM (hi!). Having that automated by the VTT speeds things up and allows you to enjoy the fun without the page flipping.

The other benefit of the VTT is it addresses my main complaint with the system. The Core Book has some things that were not well play tested. Especially the magic system. The new magic rules in Winds of Magic are great. But not there are two books to reference. Also, a lot of the rules in their subsequent books, esp. Winds of Magic and Up in Arms are not additive, but replacements to core rules. Then the various big adventure books make other subsystems availabe, which are cool, but very soon you are trying to cross reference rules from a small library of books.

Yes, you can just play with the Core rulebook, but I find that the new rules and additional systems fix things I didn't like in the Core Rules and add some cool mechanics, but I find they take more effort to master and plug into the core rules than additional rules for D&D 5e. The WFRP4e game system helps with this so much. You just select which rules variants and optional rules you want to use, everything is searchable and cross referenced, and they add all manner of Quality of Life features that make it much easier and fun to run.

I worry I'm scaring away pen and paper types away from the game. But this is a me thing. For those who like cruncier systems, it certainly is not more difficul than Pathfinder and other crunchy systems. But having the VTT really helped me get started with running WFRP.

 

[MNblockhead]

One other thing about WFRP, it may be famous for deadly and gritty combat and it leans into this with its troll-slayer fighting on the front cover art. But as @TheSword mentioned, the social aspects of play are a huge part of the game and far better supported by the rules than 5e. There is a reason that an agitator or lawyer is valuable career in this game. Warhammer could be played as a gritty version of 5e murder hobos, but I think you would be missing out on much of the flavor of the game, both mechanics, setting, and classic adventures like the Enemy Within campaign.

It is hard for me to describe, but it is a system where I play hours of social encounters, intrigue, and investigation, without a single combat, and still feel like I'm playing a game and not just an improve session.

Another reason that non-combat focused characters can matter even in combat is that combat is always a risk. Even if you have beefy warriors well advanced in their careers, going against foes they should far overpower, things can go south fast. With the way crits, advantage (whether Core or Group Advantage), injuries, infection, and slow healing work, things can go south fast. Obviously, most of the time a powerful party is going to wipe the floor with weak opponents, but there is always some very real risk.

 

[TheSword]

I love that WFRP4e is getting some love in ENWorld. Just started a campaign in January.

I'd like to give a call out to the excellent Foundry game systems and modules from Cubicle 7. It really helped me getting into running WFRP quickly and was the deciding factor between WFRP and DCC Dying Earth for me. The crunchier combat and great random tables are fun, but can slow things down at the table, especially with a less experienced DM (hi!). Having that automated by the VTT speeds things up and allows you to enjoy the fun without the page flipping.

The other benefit of the VTT is it addresses my main complaint with the system. The Core Book has some things that were not well play tested. Especially the magic system. The new magic rules in Winds of Magic are great. But not there are two books to reference. Also, a lot of the rules in their subsequent books, esp. Winds of Magic and Up in Arms are not additive, but replacements to core rules. Then the various big adventure books make other subsystems availabe, which are cool, but very soon you are trying to cross reference rules from a small library of books.

Yes, you can just play with the Core rulebook, but I find that the new rules and additional systems fix things I didn't like in the Core Rules and add some cool mechanics, but I find they take more effort to master and plug into the core rules than additional rules for D&D 5e. The WFRP4e game system helps with this so much. You just select which rules variants and optional rules you want to use, everything is searchable and cross referenced, and they add all manner of Quality of Life features that make it much easier and fun to run.

I worry I'm scaring away pen and paper types away from the game. But this is a me thing. For those who like cruncier systems, it certainly is not more difficul than Pathfinder and other crunchy systems. But having the VTT really helped me get started with running WFRP.

I agree. Wholeheartedly with this. Foundry support is great. MooMan on the Ratcatcher Discord was a fan who developed a homebrew unofficial Foundry program for WFRP 4e which was so good that Cubicle 7 and GW took him on the books and released everything officially - which meant we got the full adventure modules, art, maps, and everything. Now he’s actually overseeing their digital releases and has a whole team working for him. He’s a great guy and very active on the discord still which is nice.

In fact that is another thing I really like about the system… the community is great. The ratcatchers Guild has over 8,000 people on it and if you post a question you usually get an answer in minutes. Lots of discussion about homebrewing, lots of adventures written by the community, and unofficial FAQ compiled from all the Dev responses to questions. Which are a lot. Many of the rules released in later books came from discussion on the discord. Also lots of GM guidance in running published adventures etc.

 

[pawsplay]

My experience is mostly with previous editions, but WFRPG is really great for that "grim company of adventurers meeting by the hearth late in the night, conspiring at some aim or quest." It's very much Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, it's the hobbits meeting Strider at the inn, it's the Three Musketeers and the Treasure of the Sierra Madre, and all that rolled up into one.

 

[TheSword]

I love that WFRP4e is getting some love in ENWorld. Just started a campaign in January.

I'd like to give a call out to the excellent Foundry game systems and modules from Cubicle 7. It really helped me getting into running WFRP quickly and was the deciding factor between WFRP and DCC Dying Earth for me. The crunchier combat and great random tables are fun, but can slow things down at the table, especially with a less experienced DM (hi!). Having that automated by the VTT speeds things up and allows you to enjoy the fun without the page flipping.

The other benefit of the VTT is it addresses my main complaint with the system. The Core Book has some things that were not well play tested. Especially the magic system. The new magic rules in Winds of Magic are great. But not there are two books to reference. Also, a lot of the rules in their subsequent books, esp. Winds of Magic and Up in Arms are not additive, but replacements to core rules. Then the various big adventure books make other subsystems availabe, which are cool, but very soon you are trying to cross reference rules from a small library of books.

Yes, you can just play with the Core rulebook, but I find that the new rules and additional systems fix things I didn't like in the Core Rules and add some cool mechanics, but I find they take more effort to master and plug into the core rules than additional rules for D&D 5e. The WFRP4e game system helps with this so much. You just select which rules variants and optional rules you want to use, everything is searchable and cross referenced, and they add all manner of Quality of Life features that make it much easier and fun to run.

I worry I'm scaring away pen and paper types away from the game. But this is a me thing. For those who like cruncier systems, it certainly is not more difficul than Pathfinder and other crunchy systems. But having the VTT really helped me get started with running WFRP.

What campaign are you running, one of your own creation or published? How is it going so far?