Dragonlance Dragonlance Creators Reveal Why There Are No Orcs On Krynn

Talking to the Dragonlance Nexus, Dragonlance creators Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman revealed why the world of Krynn features no orcs -- in short, because they didn't want to copy Tolkien, and orcs were very much a 'Middle Earth' thing.

Weis told Trampas Whiteman that "Orcs were also viewed as very Middle Earth. We wanted something different." Hickman added that it was draconians which made Krynn stand out. Read more at the link below!

Why are there no Orcs in Krynn? Weis and Hickman give us the answer! - Dragonlance Nexus

Dragonhelm gets the scoop from Weis and Hickman on why there are no orcs in Krynn. Read More

dragonlancenexus.com

 

[mamba]

I’m not saying I’d need or want to play an orc or a half orc.

then the existence of orcs (or lack thereof) should not be a concern

What I’m saying is that if I was running a Dragonlance game, there’s a host of things I’m going to focus on as the important setting elements way before I get to the lack of orcs.

I agree, there are far more important things. There actually are very few less important things, I believe - unless you get into the really banal stuff like what kinds of cheeses exist

 

[Dire Bare]

If there is only one person willing to DM in town, maybe you should ask why that is

Oh good lord.

It can be hard to find a DM/GM, because it is WORK. Also, many players feel intimidated by the job, and feel they wouldn't stack up, so they don't step up.

It's not because, if you choose to DM, you'll be inundated with unreasonably demanding players.

Sheesh.

 

[Faolyn]

#471 is a non-generic setting that has no orcs. It's better than nothing, but not as good as a setting with even more things that make it non-generic.

So how is Krynn better than #471?

Because if the only thing that makes Dragonlance non-generic setting #471 is the lack of orcs, then hate to break it to you--it's a generic setting.

Ravenloft would still be a land of Gothic Horror even if every race was as common there as they are in Faerun, because that setting's draw isn't the lack of non-human races; it's the Gothic Horror. Having it be a setting where humans are dominant is only a side-effect of the types of stories it was based on. Dark Sun would still be a post-apocalypse world of magical desolation and desperation if there were orcs there as a main race, because orcs would simply be a different race in the arenas. Planescape would still be a universe of philosophers with clubs if they hadn't added tieflings, baurier, aasimar, genasi, or rogue modrons but had stuck to the PHB races.

If Dragonlance is a truly unique setting, then it shouldn't matter one whit if there were orcs or not because the setting should not fall apart by their presence. The uniqueness should rest on the setting's in-game history, its nations and cultures, the types of adventures to be had there, the setting's feel and flavor. So is Dragonlance so very fragile that it can't survive the the possibility that orcs exist?

 

[Faolyn]

So the Theros and Ravnica project teams just didn't get the memo? As recently as 2 years ago it wasn't a requirement and interestingly skimming the Theros thread I found on here it grew to 7 pages and I found 1 comment saying someone wouldn't likely run a setting that only had 6 races in it. Simpler times I guess.

My guess is they just had a different vision for what they wanted Eberron to be so he was given different guidance.

<sigh>

Theros and Ravnica were created for Magic: the Gathering and later converted to D&D. Eberron was created for D&D, specifically for a contest that had specific rules to it.

Different things.

 

[billd91]

If Dragonlance is a truly unique setting, then it shouldn't matter one whit if there were orcs or not because the setting should not fall apart by their presence. The uniqueness should rest on the setting's in-game history, its nations and cultures, the types of adventures to be had there, the setting's feel and flavor. So is Dragonlance so very fragile that it can't survive the the possibility that orcs exist?

It wouldn’t fall apart if orcs were added… but why should they be added? It’s perfectly fine without them. I’d even venture it’s probably better without them since that’s one fewer semi-redundant humanoid running around cluttering up the place. Frankly, they could probably cull a few more and hardly anybody would miss them and not affect the core differences and themes one bit.

 

[Faolyn]

Who decided that it has to include every PHB race? Does 'certain things' even cover races?

Pretty sure WotC did, and "certain things" covers a wide variety of... things. Based on stuff he's written, I have a feeling Baker wouldn't have included alignment if he didn't have to.

no orcs, but that is because you started with 'basically generic', DL is far from basically generic and if you think no orcs is the main distinguishing feature, you know nothing about it

Tell that to Max, whom I was quoting.

'not enough lore' is pretty much the opposite of 'everything from the PHB'

That's correct. Spelljammer wasn't good for reasons that were completely different than limiting the races.

how is this even relevant? The D&D orcs are definitely Tolkien orcs. Not having an orc does not require any interpretation of what an orc is.

It's relevant because I was showing that one does not need, and has never needed, to limit the origin of the orcs to what was in Tolkien. If Hickman and Weiss were so gung-ho on creating an origin story for orcs, they had a world of other options.

mission accomplished then, DL does not have the same creation story for orcs as Tolkien

<sigh>

Not sure how that is proving your point. They went with Tolkien elves and that somehow shows that they did not have to go with Tolkien for orcs?

You misunderstood.

They took Tolkienesque elves, even took some of Tolkien's ideas for elves, but didn't take their origin story. Why couldn't they have taken Tolkienesque orcs but not taken their origin story?

 

[Faolyn]

It wouldn’t fall apart if orcs were added… but why should they be added? It’s perfectly fine without them. I’d even venture it’s probably better without them since that’s one fewer semi-redundant humanoid running around cluttering up the place. Frankly, they could probably cull a few more and hardly anybody would miss them and not affect the core differences and themes one bit.

So then there's absolutely no problem if the 5e Dragonlance book doesn't say that orcs aren't native, thus allowing people to play a native orc character in a Dragonlance game, right?

 

[Teemu]

Ansalon is not that exhaustively detailed that you couldn’t add a small people of orcs living in a couple of places, like a mountain range and a more wasteland style region. They could simply be a footnote people who never rose to prominence. And I see a lot more value in finding a place for a playable 5e race in Dragonlance than coming up with stats for thanoi or shadowfolk.

 

[billd91]

So then there's absolutely no problem if the 5e Dragonlance book doesn't say that orcs aren't native, thus allowing people to play a native orc character in a Dragonlance game, right?

For an individual game and willing DM, knock yourself out. But if a DM wants to keep them out and keep to the published material and authors' designs, and if the 5e version wants to keep them out as well, that's fine too. It's OK if published settings don't include everything in the D&D rules.

 

[Maxperson]

So how is Krynn better than #471?

No orcs and all of the rest generic isn't Krynn.

Because if the only thing that makes Dragonlance non-generic setting #471 is the lack of orcs, then hate to break it to you--it's a generic setting.

It isn't. But it is one thing that helps.

Ravenloft would still be a land of Gothic Horror even if every race was as common there as they are in Faerun, because that setting's draw isn't the lack of non-human races; it's the Gothic Horror.

And nothing says Gothic Horror like, "A rabbit, a turtle and a cat walk into a bar!"

Having it be a setting where humans are dominant is only a side-effect of the types of stories it was based on. Dark Sun would still be a post-apocalypse world of magical desolation and desperation if there were orcs there as a main race, because orcs would simply be a different race in the arenas.

Yes it would still be post-apocalyptic. No it wouldn't feel like the Dark Sun we know. It would be a different post-apocalyptic setting.

If Dragonlance is a truly unique setting, then it shouldn't matter one whit if there were orcs or not because the setting should not fall apart by their presence.

There's a fallacy there, but I'm too tired to look for it. Instead I'll just point out that you are wrong. Since lack of orcs is part of the uniqueness, it's an error to assume that it shouldn't matter if you add them in. The setting won't fall apart, but it will feel different.