Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Worlds of Design: Tough Times at the Top
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Jfdlsjfd" data-source="post: 8378618" data-attributes="member: 42856"><p>So basically, the solution you propose to the problem amount to : (a) not play the high level characters but their henchmens after some time (b) not play the high level characters because they die before getting there (c) not play the high level characters for long because the game is skewed so it takes so much time that real life (and will to play something else) will put a stop to the character progression before they reach it.</p><p></p><p>I'd say your solutions (or more exactly, side-steps) are spot-on to the problem you diagnose. If you think D&D is <em>not fun</em> after level 10, by all means don't play it. I don't think eating green beans is fun so I don't eat them. I don't try to find convoluted ways to making eating them fun for me and I order fries instead.</p><p></p><p>In order to provide solutions, the problem must be narrowed down better than "it's not fun": analysis paralysis, discrepancies in power between martial and magic classe that might need GM adjudication to evolve as higher levels are reached, whole parts of the game that can be skipped (travelling is skipped by teleportation... the solution 5e did was to make teleportation higher level but they didn't include a chapter on how to change your storytelling and adventure building for this, just delaying the apparition of kewl powers, which wasn't the best way to handle this if they wanted to have people actually playing at high level...</p><p></p><p>The explicit problems you mentions are the ability to nova and a lack of ability to identify. To counter the first... play with it. The characters are no longers Frodos and Gimlis, they are Sarumans and Feanors at this point. They deserve to be able to shine when nova'ing. Adapt your fights setup so big fights include reinforcements, summoned help and so on. Use the example of Auril's avatar in RotFM and others (including the excellent book on monster design by Giffyglyph to have several "forms" of the boss, so novaing will defeat its first form only to have it to switch to the second... and if you nova'ed too much, you might be in trouble. It also makes those boss interesting to fight and suprising and I find it better than Legendary resistances which only make cool abilities fizzles... which is not coool.</p><p></p><p>I also like to have them face superhumanly intelligent opponents at this level. The ones that would make plans to ensure their self-preservation. Let the players try scry-and-die on one of them... only to have him contingently flee. He can afford to let the heroes loose in his throne room while his army of guards reaches it, led by his second in command. A handy demiplane is useful, same with being a lich, a contingent dimension door... Nova-ing will let the players feel powerful, but not achieve much for the characters if they teleport back home after that without finishing the task...</p><p></p><p>While at it, don't forget to let the players wipe the floor with mid-level enemies when they are high leve, sometimes. Gandalf doesn't fear wolves, he tackles balrogs and part of the pleasure of high level play is having this sense of achievement. Look at Jango Fett in the prequel trilogy. He's a deadly bounty hunter, model for all the clone troopers and presented as a high level threat. On Geonosis, it's reinforced by him defeating one of the beast in the arena with ease... Then, he shoots at Windu, who runs at him and fight him... for less than six seconds. It takes one round (Jango gets the initiative, make 5 ranged attacks, then Windu takes a move action, a first attack to Disarm and a second attack to kill).</p><p></p><p>[MEDIA=youtube]qQhkqUyH8kQ[/MEDIA]</p><p></p><p>That's the level of competency the high level characters should have, and sometime enjoy it, when they reach high level. They are no longer the farmboy recently going out to explore the galaxy... And they need to feel they reached that level after their trials clearing basements of rats.</p><p></p><p></p><p>With regard to identification, I don't know really as I don't share this difficulty (on the contrary). As you stated people can identify with Superman... the key is to have players sharing the expectations of the campaign beforehand and manage the switch in power-level by adapting the storytelling to it. WotC paved the way by creating "tiers" but maybe they could have done a better job to showing how to scale the ante with each tier. Having campaign pausing (with time elapsing) between the tier also makes the gain in power more believable if that's what breaks at your table. If 5 years in game time pass between you reached level 16 and you start the next adventure at level 17, the step-up will be more manageable (but have something for martials at this point... they shouldn't be neglected. They are the Hercules and Achilles of the world, as well.</p><p></p><p>I also start campaign with a set-up where they are bossed around at first, with a quest giver able to order them around, then move to a set-up where they can have much more leeway at mid-level (the thread is identified, the means to resolve them are left to them, because they are at Knights-of-the-Round-Table level... they are tasked to seek the Grail, not send in town X through path Y, then fight foe Z while there like a simple militiamen... and at the very high-level, I move to a sandbox setup. The players are familiar with the world, so they can be more proactive in what they decide to do when they identify a cosmic threat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jfdlsjfd, post: 8378618, member: 42856"] So basically, the solution you propose to the problem amount to : (a) not play the high level characters but their henchmens after some time (b) not play the high level characters because they die before getting there (c) not play the high level characters for long because the game is skewed so it takes so much time that real life (and will to play something else) will put a stop to the character progression before they reach it. I'd say your solutions (or more exactly, side-steps) are spot-on to the problem you diagnose. If you think D&D is [I]not fun[/I] after level 10, by all means don't play it. I don't think eating green beans is fun so I don't eat them. I don't try to find convoluted ways to making eating them fun for me and I order fries instead. In order to provide solutions, the problem must be narrowed down better than "it's not fun": analysis paralysis, discrepancies in power between martial and magic classe that might need GM adjudication to evolve as higher levels are reached, whole parts of the game that can be skipped (travelling is skipped by teleportation... the solution 5e did was to make teleportation higher level but they didn't include a chapter on how to change your storytelling and adventure building for this, just delaying the apparition of kewl powers, which wasn't the best way to handle this if they wanted to have people actually playing at high level... The explicit problems you mentions are the ability to nova and a lack of ability to identify. To counter the first... play with it. The characters are no longers Frodos and Gimlis, they are Sarumans and Feanors at this point. They deserve to be able to shine when nova'ing. Adapt your fights setup so big fights include reinforcements, summoned help and so on. Use the example of Auril's avatar in RotFM and others (including the excellent book on monster design by Giffyglyph to have several "forms" of the boss, so novaing will defeat its first form only to have it to switch to the second... and if you nova'ed too much, you might be in trouble. It also makes those boss interesting to fight and suprising and I find it better than Legendary resistances which only make cool abilities fizzles... which is not coool. I also like to have them face superhumanly intelligent opponents at this level. The ones that would make plans to ensure their self-preservation. Let the players try scry-and-die on one of them... only to have him contingently flee. He can afford to let the heroes loose in his throne room while his army of guards reaches it, led by his second in command. A handy demiplane is useful, same with being a lich, a contingent dimension door... Nova-ing will let the players feel powerful, but not achieve much for the characters if they teleport back home after that without finishing the task... While at it, don't forget to let the players wipe the floor with mid-level enemies when they are high leve, sometimes. Gandalf doesn't fear wolves, he tackles balrogs and part of the pleasure of high level play is having this sense of achievement. Look at Jango Fett in the prequel trilogy. He's a deadly bounty hunter, model for all the clone troopers and presented as a high level threat. On Geonosis, it's reinforced by him defeating one of the beast in the arena with ease... Then, he shoots at Windu, who runs at him and fight him... for less than six seconds. It takes one round (Jango gets the initiative, make 5 ranged attacks, then Windu takes a move action, a first attack to Disarm and a second attack to kill). [MEDIA=youtube]qQhkqUyH8kQ[/MEDIA] That's the level of competency the high level characters should have, and sometime enjoy it, when they reach high level. They are no longer the farmboy recently going out to explore the galaxy... And they need to feel they reached that level after their trials clearing basements of rats. With regard to identification, I don't know really as I don't share this difficulty (on the contrary). As you stated people can identify with Superman... the key is to have players sharing the expectations of the campaign beforehand and manage the switch in power-level by adapting the storytelling to it. WotC paved the way by creating "tiers" but maybe they could have done a better job to showing how to scale the ante with each tier. Having campaign pausing (with time elapsing) between the tier also makes the gain in power more believable if that's what breaks at your table. If 5 years in game time pass between you reached level 16 and you start the next adventure at level 17, the step-up will be more manageable (but have something for martials at this point... they shouldn't be neglected. They are the Hercules and Achilles of the world, as well. I also start campaign with a set-up where they are bossed around at first, with a quest giver able to order them around, then move to a set-up where they can have much more leeway at mid-level (the thread is identified, the means to resolve them are left to them, because they are at Knights-of-the-Round-Table level... they are tasked to seek the Grail, not send in town X through path Y, then fight foe Z while there like a simple militiamen... and at the very high-level, I move to a sandbox setup. The players are familiar with the world, so they can be more proactive in what they decide to do when they identify a cosmic threat. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Worlds of Design: Tough Times at the Top
Top