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Worlds of Design: The Problem with Magimarts
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 9324262" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>3.0e is my favorite version of D&D and my favorite fantasy system and I protest that this is still a matter of setting and not a matter of edition. Fundamentally, I felt that 3e D&D better explained the world as observed in Gygaxian 1e AD&D than 1e AD&D's rules did, and I changed nothing about how I conceived of the setting in terms of availability of magic items.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We have very different ideas of what constitutes "character" and what parts of character are under the player's control. Your point is undermined by the fact that your cool character was created by random loot drops. Players have much better things to worry about than exactly how their character will look and play at 12th level. Moreover, I'm not opposed to a player commissioning an item that they greatly desire, just opposed to the idea that there is a magic mart where they can go find whatever they desire. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed. It also encourages very high levels of optimization that generally increase effective character level beyond the expectations of the system. The system isn't designed to handle that level of optimization. The appropriate response to it is to up encounter difficulty and decrease XP awards, otherwise you'll just have players stream rolling otherwise level appropriate challenges.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This very much depends on group aesthetics. Matt Mercer loves shopkeepers and downtime as opportunities for character building and establishing dialogue and comedy. You might say he has magic marts precisely to encourage PC's to interact with shopkeepers.</p><p></p><p>But despite the thoughfulness of your list, you fail to mention what for me is the biggest problem with a magic mart to me and that's they undermine the aesthetic of the game. D&D is always about exploring the netherworld where "netherworld" has a pretty broad definition. You don't want what is in the shop to be better than what you can get through loot drops. That cycle of acquiring the loot drops that cRPGs capitalize on and make almost the sole game play is still core D&D game play. You want magic items to feel sort of priceless because what it took to get them. You don't (normally) want to find The One Ring in a gift shop (unless it is a very special gift shop that is itself part of the netherworld).</p><p></p><p>There are also problems with player entitlement. I have talked to 3e players that thought it was unfair of a DM to hide treasure because they were owed treasure as part of their character concept. They viewed wealth by level not as a guideline but as a contract the GM was obligated to fulfill and that the player might not find the treasure he was owed poor DMing. They wanted treasure to just fall at the player's feet itemized and identified like a cRPG, and the idea that you might have to search offended them. This again undermines the game's core aesthetic. I don't have a lot of interest in the minigame that developed in 3e where you try to optimize the build for 1-20 right down to the gear you have at each level. </p><p></p><p>Moreover, it also undermines player crafting. If you have everything available in the gift shop, what value is there really in being able to craft your own gear? This is a valid player aspiration that ought to carry with it a sense of satisfaction. Whether the crafting rules are fair and balanced is another point to address, but the whole point is that you want PCs invested in aspirations for things that they truly can control, not in aspirations for things that are really beyond their control (whether the exact weapon they want exists in a particular shop). And really, Magic Mart is a terrible Fantasy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 9324262, member: 4937"] 3.0e is my favorite version of D&D and my favorite fantasy system and I protest that this is still a matter of setting and not a matter of edition. Fundamentally, I felt that 3e D&D better explained the world as observed in Gygaxian 1e AD&D than 1e AD&D's rules did, and I changed nothing about how I conceived of the setting in terms of availability of magic items. We have very different ideas of what constitutes "character" and what parts of character are under the player's control. Your point is undermined by the fact that your cool character was created by random loot drops. Players have much better things to worry about than exactly how their character will look and play at 12th level. Moreover, I'm not opposed to a player commissioning an item that they greatly desire, just opposed to the idea that there is a magic mart where they can go find whatever they desire. Agreed. It also encourages very high levels of optimization that generally increase effective character level beyond the expectations of the system. The system isn't designed to handle that level of optimization. The appropriate response to it is to up encounter difficulty and decrease XP awards, otherwise you'll just have players stream rolling otherwise level appropriate challenges. This very much depends on group aesthetics. Matt Mercer loves shopkeepers and downtime as opportunities for character building and establishing dialogue and comedy. You might say he has magic marts precisely to encourage PC's to interact with shopkeepers. But despite the thoughfulness of your list, you fail to mention what for me is the biggest problem with a magic mart to me and that's they undermine the aesthetic of the game. D&D is always about exploring the netherworld where "netherworld" has a pretty broad definition. You don't want what is in the shop to be better than what you can get through loot drops. That cycle of acquiring the loot drops that cRPGs capitalize on and make almost the sole game play is still core D&D game play. You want magic items to feel sort of priceless because what it took to get them. You don't (normally) want to find The One Ring in a gift shop (unless it is a very special gift shop that is itself part of the netherworld). There are also problems with player entitlement. I have talked to 3e players that thought it was unfair of a DM to hide treasure because they were owed treasure as part of their character concept. They viewed wealth by level not as a guideline but as a contract the GM was obligated to fulfill and that the player might not find the treasure he was owed poor DMing. They wanted treasure to just fall at the player's feet itemized and identified like a cRPG, and the idea that you might have to search offended them. This again undermines the game's core aesthetic. I don't have a lot of interest in the minigame that developed in 3e where you try to optimize the build for 1-20 right down to the gear you have at each level. Moreover, it also undermines player crafting. If you have everything available in the gift shop, what value is there really in being able to craft your own gear? This is a valid player aspiration that ought to carry with it a sense of satisfaction. Whether the crafting rules are fair and balanced is another point to address, but the whole point is that you want PCs invested in aspirations for things that they truly can control, not in aspirations for things that are really beyond their control (whether the exact weapon they want exists in a particular shop). And really, Magic Mart is a terrible Fantasy. [/QUOTE]
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