Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
What's Going on with Goblinoid Games (Labyrinth Lord)?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 8705059" data-attributes="member: 7026594"><p>Right. Goblinoid Games is Dan Procter's company, originally to publish Labyrinth Lord (and later other stuff, like Mutant Future), which was one of the earliest retroclones (2007; OSRIC was in 2006), and the first one based primarily on B/X.</p><p></p><p>It was created early enough in the clone movement that no one was sure yet what the real legal boundaries were, and how exactly WotC might react to folks using the OGL to clone older editions rather than just making materials for 3rd ed. For this reason, Dan included a lot of minor tweaks to tables and rules in Labyrinth Lord to make it NOT an exact clone of B/X. To be able to easily show in court, if needed, that the presentation of the core rules differed from B/X D&D (under US law, you can't trademark game mechanics, but you can trademark as IP the idiosyncratic presentation thereof; a given author's unique phrasing and presentation). The xp tables are different. Levels go to 20 instead of 14 max, and spells go to 9th level. Treasure Types are renamed Hoard Classes and given roman numerals instead of letter codes. Morale/Reaction rolls are flipped. Clerics are given a spell at 1st level (which a lot of folks preferred, from AD&D) instead of waiting until 2nd. More armor and weapon types and spells are included from AD&D. He included alternate versions of monsters WotC had reserved as restricted IP (like Carrion Crawlers and Thouls) and gave them new names, such as Carcass Scavengers and Thoghrin.</p><p></p><p>Dan also published in physical form, not just PDF, and got copies of the book into game stores. He spent the money to commission art by new artists inspired by the originals, hiring several artists in the OSR scene. Despite the various changes from the original, a lot of folks were hungry for a B/X clone, and Labyrinth Lord became the de-facto standard OSR game for this purpose. Various publishers adopted it and published modules and adventures labeled as compatible with LL, and using those monster names, for example. Both Stonehell and Barrowmaze, for example, two of the biggest, most popular megadungeons put out for the OSR were published with LL listed as the intended system. Dyson Logos used LL as the system for his modules and his free mini-megadungeon (Dyson's Delve) he released on his blog. (In recent years I periodically encounter a DM new to OSR referencing Barrowmaze or Stonehell and asking "What the heck is a Thoghrin?" or "'What does see page xx of LL' mean?" because they're not actually using or familiar with Labyrinth Lord.)</p><p></p><p>There was always a sub-set of players, however, that ran into some friction playing with LL but wanting "real" B/X. Folks who would prefer to be able to reference their original B/X books at the table, for example, alongside new players using clone rulebooks. Or who just preferred original rules like Clerics not getting a spell until 2nd level. And eventually publishers started experimenting with more direct clones.</p><p></p><p>As I recall Gavin Norman originally came up with B/X Essentials (in 2018, IIRC) as a direct clone of B/X just with all the rules presented in his own wording, but keeping the same numbers for stuff like XP tables and spell progressions, using the original Treasure Types and Reaction rolls, etc. He still re-named restricted IP monsters (Carcass Crawler instead of Carrion Crawler, for example), but they're easily recognizable and mechanically identical. This was later retitled Old School Essentials, and in the last few years it's basically taken over the place of LL in the OSR publishing ecosystem. Gavin's version has excellent layout, organization and graphic design, adding real value in ease of use and reference at the table. His company Necrotic Gnome has also gone all-out in the art and book design department, publishing really lovely books. And they've offered all the core rules for free online including in a super-convenient SRD format.</p><p></p><p>Labyrinth Lord remains an excellent game, but the OSR movement in general has shifted to OSE as the current hotness and de-facto standard for B/X style rules and books.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mannahnin, post: 8705059, member: 7026594"] Right. Goblinoid Games is Dan Procter's company, originally to publish Labyrinth Lord (and later other stuff, like Mutant Future), which was one of the earliest retroclones (2007; OSRIC was in 2006), and the first one based primarily on B/X. It was created early enough in the clone movement that no one was sure yet what the real legal boundaries were, and how exactly WotC might react to folks using the OGL to clone older editions rather than just making materials for 3rd ed. For this reason, Dan included a lot of minor tweaks to tables and rules in Labyrinth Lord to make it NOT an exact clone of B/X. To be able to easily show in court, if needed, that the presentation of the core rules differed from B/X D&D (under US law, you can't trademark game mechanics, but you can trademark as IP the idiosyncratic presentation thereof; a given author's unique phrasing and presentation). The xp tables are different. Levels go to 20 instead of 14 max, and spells go to 9th level. Treasure Types are renamed Hoard Classes and given roman numerals instead of letter codes. Morale/Reaction rolls are flipped. Clerics are given a spell at 1st level (which a lot of folks preferred, from AD&D) instead of waiting until 2nd. More armor and weapon types and spells are included from AD&D. He included alternate versions of monsters WotC had reserved as restricted IP (like Carrion Crawlers and Thouls) and gave them new names, such as Carcass Scavengers and Thoghrin. Dan also published in physical form, not just PDF, and got copies of the book into game stores. He spent the money to commission art by new artists inspired by the originals, hiring several artists in the OSR scene. Despite the various changes from the original, a lot of folks were hungry for a B/X clone, and Labyrinth Lord became the de-facto standard OSR game for this purpose. Various publishers adopted it and published modules and adventures labeled as compatible with LL, and using those monster names, for example. Both Stonehell and Barrowmaze, for example, two of the biggest, most popular megadungeons put out for the OSR were published with LL listed as the intended system. Dyson Logos used LL as the system for his modules and his free mini-megadungeon (Dyson's Delve) he released on his blog. (In recent years I periodically encounter a DM new to OSR referencing Barrowmaze or Stonehell and asking "What the heck is a Thoghrin?" or "'What does see page xx of LL' mean?" because they're not actually using or familiar with Labyrinth Lord.) There was always a sub-set of players, however, that ran into some friction playing with LL but wanting "real" B/X. Folks who would prefer to be able to reference their original B/X books at the table, for example, alongside new players using clone rulebooks. Or who just preferred original rules like Clerics not getting a spell until 2nd level. And eventually publishers started experimenting with more direct clones. As I recall Gavin Norman originally came up with B/X Essentials (in 2018, IIRC) as a direct clone of B/X just with all the rules presented in his own wording, but keeping the same numbers for stuff like XP tables and spell progressions, using the original Treasure Types and Reaction rolls, etc. He still re-named restricted IP monsters (Carcass Crawler instead of Carrion Crawler, for example), but they're easily recognizable and mechanically identical. This was later retitled Old School Essentials, and in the last few years it's basically taken over the place of LL in the OSR publishing ecosystem. Gavin's version has excellent layout, organization and graphic design, adding real value in ease of use and reference at the table. His company Necrotic Gnome has also gone all-out in the art and book design department, publishing really lovely books. And they've offered all the core rules for free online including in a super-convenient SRD format. Labyrinth Lord remains an excellent game, but the OSR movement in general has shifted to OSE as the current hotness and de-facto standard for B/X style rules and books. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
What's Going on with Goblinoid Games (Labyrinth Lord)?
Top