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<blockquote data-quote="Jacob Lewis" data-source="post: 8618287" data-attributes="member: 6667921"><p>I realize I kicked a hornet's nest, but I don't want to spend the rest of the day explaining myself. So I'll do this once, and then I'm going to <em>try </em>and drop the subject (i.e. I'll do my best not to respond to any more comments or discussions about Orcus because I would like to move past it).</p><p></p><p>Orcus might be a good system to play with, if that is your thing. I don't find it appealing myself, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the work and effort put into it by the author. I absolutely respect the organization and format skills on display. Kudos!</p><p></p><p>When we're talking about a usable OGL to support 4e specifically, however, I don't think this is it. For Orcus? Sure. But I wouldn't base a general model on it for 4e, and a lot of that comes from reading the Copyright Notice.</p><p></p><p>Obviously, it is very long. If you're wanting to publish, or even just make it accessible for others to use it, you'll need to make space for everything on that list <em>plus </em>anything else you want to add yourself. Now if you're making content specifically for Orcus, then it's just something you have to live with. But again, some of us are discussing a 4e license (or workaround) to serve the greater community.</p><p></p><p>So here's the other issue I have:</p><p></p><p>I understand that. But "almost as long" as three pages? I guess it depends on your definition of <em>almost</em>. Most of what I could find in my small Paizo library is less than one page. That's the entire OGL with Copyright Notice. I attached a screenshot from a pdf with one of the bigger ones.</p><p></p><p>What the OGL <em>doesn't require</em>, however, is that you use content from a hundred different sources and authors just so you can have more content. The biggest difference between Paizo (or OSE) and a person with a lot of enthusiam is that one of these is not a professional publisher with experience navigating and utilizing the OGL. (Maybe they do. I don't know. But I'm not exactly filled with confidence on that point.) That's not a strong selling point for me; it's more like a load stone or an albatross around my neck.</p><p></p><p>Assuming that the author did their homework and researched each individual license for everything they included in Orcus, everything should be good and no one is going to come back later with any issues or disputes. Supposedly. But if someone else uses the license, they might not be quite as clear about OGLs and what's allowed, etc. Not only will they need to refer to the Orcus OGL, but will probably also want to go back and make sure the other OGLs will allow them to do what they want to do with their content. Its probably not an issue in most cases, but I'd want to know. Maybe that's just me.</p><p></p><p>But suppose it's not just me. Maybe the authors and publishers get wind of this and take a look for themselves. Maybe one of them decides their rules aren't being followed, or didn't give approval for the way its being used, or something. Doesn't matter what it is. The fact is having this many copyrights and content from so many different sources increases the possibility that someone might not agree to allow their content to be used. And if it is baked into the system, how easy will it be to pull it out? Does it create a space that needs to be filled? How does that affect everyone else? For me, its just too much baggage with too much potential for liability. There must be a better way.</p><p></p><p>And let me point out one more thing. Just because Paizo and OSE found their solutions, doesn't mean the same solution will work for 4e. It could, but not necessarily by following the exact same footsteps. The GSL created a lot of restrictions to prevent 4e being replicated by anyone else. It's going to take a lot more effort and innovation to get around it, and that might well have been the purpose of the GSL. There's no easy way around it, and that's enough to deter most people from following through.</p><p></p><p>I'm not trying to harsh on anyone's fun, or their opinion, or their work. Orcus could be a solid alternative to 4e for some (or many), but I think the greater community needs a lighter (less encumbered) OGL to work with. I realize its one of the few arrows we have in our quiver. But its not the solution I'm looking for. Its just looks like more problems to me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jacob Lewis, post: 8618287, member: 6667921"] I realize I kicked a hornet's nest, but I don't want to spend the rest of the day explaining myself. So I'll do this once, and then I'm going to [I]try [/I]and drop the subject (i.e. I'll do my best not to respond to any more comments or discussions about Orcus because I would like to move past it). Orcus might be a good system to play with, if that is your thing. I don't find it appealing myself, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the work and effort put into it by the author. I absolutely respect the organization and format skills on display. Kudos! When we're talking about a usable OGL to support 4e specifically, however, I don't think this is it. For Orcus? Sure. But I wouldn't base a general model on it for 4e, and a lot of that comes from reading the Copyright Notice. Obviously, it is very long. If you're wanting to publish, or even just make it accessible for others to use it, you'll need to make space for everything on that list [I]plus [/I]anything else you want to add yourself. Now if you're making content specifically for Orcus, then it's just something you have to live with. But again, some of us are discussing a 4e license (or workaround) to serve the greater community. So here's the other issue I have: I understand that. But "almost as long" as three pages? I guess it depends on your definition of [I]almost[/I]. Most of what I could find in my small Paizo library is less than one page. That's the entire OGL with Copyright Notice. I attached a screenshot from a pdf with one of the bigger ones. What the OGL [I]doesn't require[/I], however,[I] [/I]is that you use content from a hundred different sources and authors just so you can have more content. The biggest difference between Paizo (or OSE) and a person with a lot of enthusiam is that one of these is not a professional publisher with experience navigating and utilizing the OGL. (Maybe they do. I don't know. But I'm not exactly filled with confidence on that point.) That's not a strong selling point for me; it's more like a load stone or an albatross around my neck. Assuming that the author did their homework and researched each individual license for everything they included in Orcus, everything should be good and no one is going to come back later with any issues or disputes. Supposedly. But if someone else uses the license, they might not be quite as clear about OGLs and what's allowed, etc. Not only will they need to refer to the Orcus OGL, but will probably also want to go back and make sure the other OGLs will allow them to do what they want to do with their content. Its probably not an issue in most cases, but I'd want to know. Maybe that's just me. But suppose it's not just me. Maybe the authors and publishers get wind of this and take a look for themselves. Maybe one of them decides their rules aren't being followed, or didn't give approval for the way its being used, or something. Doesn't matter what it is. The fact is having this many copyrights and content from so many different sources increases the possibility that someone might not agree to allow their content to be used. And if it is baked into the system, how easy will it be to pull it out? Does it create a space that needs to be filled? How does that affect everyone else? For me, its just too much baggage with too much potential for liability. There must be a better way. And let me point out one more thing. Just because Paizo and OSE found their solutions, doesn't mean the same solution will work for 4e. It could, but not necessarily by following the exact same footsteps. The GSL created a lot of restrictions to prevent 4e being replicated by anyone else. It's going to take a lot more effort and innovation to get around it, and that might well have been the purpose of the GSL. There's no easy way around it, and that's enough to deter most people from following through. I'm not trying to harsh on anyone's fun, or their opinion, or their work. Orcus could be a solid alternative to 4e for some (or many), but I think the greater community needs a lighter (less encumbered) OGL to work with. I realize its one of the few arrows we have in our quiver. But its not the solution I'm looking for. Its just looks like more problems to me. [/QUOTE]
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