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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9327565" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>But is a rogue actually better than a Bard with Expertise, to an obvious degree? </p><p></p><p>And, whether or not active magical perception would allow you to detect someone who is invisible is a pretty steep question. Detect Magic is a level 1 ritual. See Invisibility is a level 2 spell. Allowing Detect Magic to trump invisibility is a hard sell. Additionally, it requires magic. In a situation were there IS NOT magical detection, who is better? The invisible rat that was the druid, or the full-grown rogue? Sure, fine, if the enemy is specifically able to detect magic the rogue is better, but now you are just countering the magic with magic, making the second best option the better choice THIS TIME. </p><p></p><p>And sure, if you homebrew rules that say "rangers get a herd of magical beasts that follow them at level 11" then fine, they have that. But in the base game, that isn't a thing. And I've always been really hesitant to give abilities that give followers, because that often breaks immersion by suddenly having all these random people coming up to swear undying loyalty to the character.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To answer the question a different way... I think a 12th level fighter is a mid-tier fighter. They should be faster, stronger, and tougher than the lower level fighters. I think they should have a presence that cannot be ignored (but can be suppressed). </p><p></p><p>I wonder about giving them an additional 5ft of reach on all melee weapons, or as we get towards levels 15 or higher if they should start ignoring attacks of opportunity. I want them to alter their surroundings, so that they can affect exploration challenges in a bigger way. They should be dynamic and control a battlefield with their prescence. </p><p></p><p>I'm just not sure how to accomplish all of this, without just throwing another dozen abilities on the pile.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9327565, member: 6801228"] But is a rogue actually better than a Bard with Expertise, to an obvious degree? And, whether or not active magical perception would allow you to detect someone who is invisible is a pretty steep question. Detect Magic is a level 1 ritual. See Invisibility is a level 2 spell. Allowing Detect Magic to trump invisibility is a hard sell. Additionally, it requires magic. In a situation were there IS NOT magical detection, who is better? The invisible rat that was the druid, or the full-grown rogue? Sure, fine, if the enemy is specifically able to detect magic the rogue is better, but now you are just countering the magic with magic, making the second best option the better choice THIS TIME. And sure, if you homebrew rules that say "rangers get a herd of magical beasts that follow them at level 11" then fine, they have that. But in the base game, that isn't a thing. And I've always been really hesitant to give abilities that give followers, because that often breaks immersion by suddenly having all these random people coming up to swear undying loyalty to the character. To answer the question a different way... I think a 12th level fighter is a mid-tier fighter. They should be faster, stronger, and tougher than the lower level fighters. I think they should have a presence that cannot be ignored (but can be suppressed). I wonder about giving them an additional 5ft of reach on all melee weapons, or as we get towards levels 15 or higher if they should start ignoring attacks of opportunity. I want them to alter their surroundings, so that they can affect exploration challenges in a bigger way. They should be dynamic and control a battlefield with their prescence. I'm just not sure how to accomplish all of this, without just throwing another dozen abilities on the pile. [/QUOTE]
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