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<blockquote data-quote="teitan" data-source="post: 8614216" data-attributes="member: 3457"><p>D&D has always been a collector hobby and the dollar to entertainment ratio an example of how it can be cheap. That dollar to entertainment ratio really only applies depending on how much you invest in the game. If you invest in the core books and an adventure, as a DM, the dollar to entertainment value is much lower than a player. When you add in the expansion rulebooks and extended monster books it continues to lower as you don’t use all the materials provided. The additional wrench to the dollar to entertainment ratio is how often do you get to play? This is assuming a purely TOTM play style as well. So a bare minimum DM has a very inexpensive dollar to entertainment value and a player even better because they just need the PHB to play.</p><p></p><p>but it’s a collector game. How many of us know people who own more than one of the adventures or purchased the adventures and then never ran them? They either got read and sat or worse, just sat on the shelf unplayed? I used to buy them all and then sold all but Avernus and then Waterdeep set off. Now it is campaign settings. Who has bought all the campaign settings and not used them and they just sit there and maybe a race or subclass? Or nothing at all? There are diminishing returns and the expansions and MotM contribute to the diminishing returns on those books with the reprinted and iterative revisions to the content from said books and what is left rules wise become minimal effectively rendering the product dead money.</p><p></p><p>Now again we are talking about a market that is effectively a collector market as supplements are released to add to the game to enhance it and improve or change it and WOTC has in the last two years taken an approach of iterative changes across sourcebooks of “oh you know the Orc in Volo’s we have rethought and now reprinted it with some big changes in Wildemount” and now “we completely redesigned the races and how they work based on Tasha’s and in this new slipcase we are publishing a whole book of them that are reprints of the races from all these sourcebooks with the implemented changes”. This creates a psychology of needing to purchase the next product that comes along. Do you have to? No. There is nothing wrong with the game as is in the core books but if you don’t have the new stuff oh man, what about TikTok and YouTube?</p><p></p><p>So just TOTM style is a rapidly diminishing return on investment for entertainment dollars. 5e is a less egregious edition for this and has yet to experience true rule bloat and power creep but the iterative nature of post Mearls D&D is starting to show some cracks in that philosophy.</p><p></p><p>Now let’s pull out minis. Are they necessary for the game? Absolutely not but they add to it and the plethora available through Nolzur’s and blind boxes certainly are helpful and originally it seems Nolzur’s were marketed to hit the same market of affordability that Reaper was hitting with Bones but with a slightly higher quality and retention of detail in their plastic type even though they inexplicably covered it with copious amounts of Primer. Even the dragons kept the same price point.</p><p></p><p>The blind boxes maintained a decent price point but had that collectible mentality with MTG style rarities carried over from the WOtC versions and Heroclix model that made purchasing in bricks and cases attractive and more money for NECA/Wizkids. But it re-enforced that collector mentality. Gotta buy a ton of blind boxes to get a goblin horde, an Orc horde, to find that dragon. Under WOTC plunking down $10 on a box of 8 blind minis was nothing but the steady increase in price and the steady decrease in quantity per box decreased the value of the blind boxes and Nolzur’s were a lower value product for the unskilled painter.</p><p></p><p>But minis seem to be a norm now. I don’t know many groups who don’t use them. Paizo released tokens to keep the value higher but WOTC seems to, until recently with the new kit, stayed with the mini thing through GF9 and Wizkids. Wizkids is releasing counters but they are high cost compared to alternative options like Arcknight Games exact same product sold in large bundles for like $100 compared to Wizkids anemic offerings.</p><p></p><p>Wizkids is now pushing out their minis and other products at a much higher cost after securing a stronger license for D&D products and a weakening of the GF9 partnership with WOTC. They have that logo and with that “official” collector mentality the increased cost is an ever diminishing entertainment dollar ratio. Luxury items you don’t need but when all the products are pushed as luxury items at costs that make GW blush?</p><p></p><p>Next is looking at unpainted minis. Nolzur’s have a fair price. The complaint is the primer. The response was “we are going to do sprue minis you can prime”. Price is insane. Hey we are partnering with Vallejo for a paint product line too! With 20 unique colors and 40 from the Game Color range! 8 ml bottles! 3.30 per bottles in the 30 bottle paint cases. Game Color 17ml price? 3.29. Sure you’re getting the case but does the case really add value to the 8ml bottle size? Do the new colors at that size? How much are individual bottles? 2.50. A .79 difference from a full sized bottle of Game Color and the new colors are very similar to Model Colors already available. So they’re probably Model Colors with the Game Color lacquer in them. These are formulated for Wizkids and they set the price.</p><p></p><p>so yeah the hobby isn’t cheap and is a rapidly diminishing return on entertainment dollars because when you buy a book very little gets used and what little may get used gets replaced.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="teitan, post: 8614216, member: 3457"] D&D has always been a collector hobby and the dollar to entertainment ratio an example of how it can be cheap. That dollar to entertainment ratio really only applies depending on how much you invest in the game. If you invest in the core books and an adventure, as a DM, the dollar to entertainment value is much lower than a player. When you add in the expansion rulebooks and extended monster books it continues to lower as you don’t use all the materials provided. The additional wrench to the dollar to entertainment ratio is how often do you get to play? This is assuming a purely TOTM play style as well. So a bare minimum DM has a very inexpensive dollar to entertainment value and a player even better because they just need the PHB to play. but it’s a collector game. How many of us know people who own more than one of the adventures or purchased the adventures and then never ran them? They either got read and sat or worse, just sat on the shelf unplayed? I used to buy them all and then sold all but Avernus and then Waterdeep set off. Now it is campaign settings. Who has bought all the campaign settings and not used them and they just sit there and maybe a race or subclass? Or nothing at all? There are diminishing returns and the expansions and MotM contribute to the diminishing returns on those books with the reprinted and iterative revisions to the content from said books and what is left rules wise become minimal effectively rendering the product dead money. Now again we are talking about a market that is effectively a collector market as supplements are released to add to the game to enhance it and improve or change it and WOTC has in the last two years taken an approach of iterative changes across sourcebooks of “oh you know the Orc in Volo’s we have rethought and now reprinted it with some big changes in Wildemount” and now “we completely redesigned the races and how they work based on Tasha’s and in this new slipcase we are publishing a whole book of them that are reprints of the races from all these sourcebooks with the implemented changes”. This creates a psychology of needing to purchase the next product that comes along. Do you have to? No. There is nothing wrong with the game as is in the core books but if you don’t have the new stuff oh man, what about TikTok and YouTube? So just TOTM style is a rapidly diminishing return on investment for entertainment dollars. 5e is a less egregious edition for this and has yet to experience true rule bloat and power creep but the iterative nature of post Mearls D&D is starting to show some cracks in that philosophy. Now let’s pull out minis. Are they necessary for the game? Absolutely not but they add to it and the plethora available through Nolzur’s and blind boxes certainly are helpful and originally it seems Nolzur’s were marketed to hit the same market of affordability that Reaper was hitting with Bones but with a slightly higher quality and retention of detail in their plastic type even though they inexplicably covered it with copious amounts of Primer. Even the dragons kept the same price point. The blind boxes maintained a decent price point but had that collectible mentality with MTG style rarities carried over from the WOtC versions and Heroclix model that made purchasing in bricks and cases attractive and more money for NECA/Wizkids. But it re-enforced that collector mentality. Gotta buy a ton of blind boxes to get a goblin horde, an Orc horde, to find that dragon. Under WOTC plunking down $10 on a box of 8 blind minis was nothing but the steady increase in price and the steady decrease in quantity per box decreased the value of the blind boxes and Nolzur’s were a lower value product for the unskilled painter. But minis seem to be a norm now. I don’t know many groups who don’t use them. Paizo released tokens to keep the value higher but WOTC seems to, until recently with the new kit, stayed with the mini thing through GF9 and Wizkids. Wizkids is releasing counters but they are high cost compared to alternative options like Arcknight Games exact same product sold in large bundles for like $100 compared to Wizkids anemic offerings. Wizkids is now pushing out their minis and other products at a much higher cost after securing a stronger license for D&D products and a weakening of the GF9 partnership with WOTC. They have that logo and with that “official” collector mentality the increased cost is an ever diminishing entertainment dollar ratio. Luxury items you don’t need but when all the products are pushed as luxury items at costs that make GW blush? Next is looking at unpainted minis. Nolzur’s have a fair price. The complaint is the primer. The response was “we are going to do sprue minis you can prime”. Price is insane. Hey we are partnering with Vallejo for a paint product line too! With 20 unique colors and 40 from the Game Color range! 8 ml bottles! 3.30 per bottles in the 30 bottle paint cases. Game Color 17ml price? 3.29. Sure you’re getting the case but does the case really add value to the 8ml bottle size? Do the new colors at that size? How much are individual bottles? 2.50. A .79 difference from a full sized bottle of Game Color and the new colors are very similar to Model Colors already available. So they’re probably Model Colors with the Game Color lacquer in them. These are formulated for Wizkids and they set the price. so yeah the hobby isn’t cheap and is a rapidly diminishing return on entertainment dollars because when you buy a book very little gets used and what little may get used gets replaced. [/QUOTE]
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