Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
One thing I hate about the Sorcerer
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="MoonSong" data-source="post: 9302608" data-attributes="member: 6689464"><p>I at, some point, made a thread about this. <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/on-whether-sorcerers-and-wizards-should-be-merged-or-not-they-shouldnt.670175/" target="_blank">https://www.enworld.org/threads/on-whether-sorcerers-and-wizards-should-be-merged-or-not-they-shouldnt.670175/</a></p><p></p><p>My point is, the sorcerer (charismatic, instinctive, emotional, magic as nature and not a choice) contrasts with the warlock (sneaky, roguey, cunning, magic as unnatural) and the wizard ( smart, scholarly, magic as an active ongoing choice) are just too different to coexist in the same class. If you make a class that seeks to preserve these themes, that class has to be extremely barebones with little active mechanical support -because active support for one of the themes might get in the way of the other- or basically be so segmented that you have essentially three classes that just happen to not be able to multiclass with each other, or worse basically be point buy. </p><p></p><p>This is even more difficult because people are stuck on-the wizard-is-the-generic-one mindset when it is the most ultra-especiffic one. Sorcerer is 'I just have magic'. Warlock is 'my magic is borrowed from another entity', and the wizard is 'my magic is the result of years of study and I practice it everyday by studying my book'. How are the first two subflavors the last one? (If anything, the first one is the broadest, yet it still leaves behind some of the themes of the other two) </p><p></p><p>There is not enough thematic room in the wizard class for the warlock and sorcerer. One can come with a subclass that kind of resembles superficially each and can stand for them in a pinch, but that fails to properly reflect these stories and themes. Like the subclass up here that claims to be a sorcerer subclass for the wizard, yet changes nothing about the base class and without further houserules cannot properly portray a sorcerer. The worst part is that it reduces sorcerers to just metamagic while doing away with all of the cool bloodline themes -for example-. * And that's the issue, like deciding that pastries are just a kind of bread and that to streamline things and you are going to only have one croisant covered in chocolate and filled with sour cream and have that stand for cookies, cupcakes, donuts and everything else. </p><p></p><p>Or just look at how the warlord is doing in 5e. The Battlemaster has enough maneuvers to build a kind of warlord if you squint and you can use feats to kind of get there. And that is not precisely a warlord, because it is only a build, a one-of. And most importantly cannot cover the diversity of warlords that 4e allowed. (Let's not talk of lazy lord, it is just not possible) </p><p></p><p>* Let me tell you, if you need extra rules for the subclass to kinda stand in for a class, then it isn't a successful merge, and if the rules are thorough enough that you can fully replace it, then you haven't removed the class, it is just now unwritten and implicit for no reason other than aesthetics.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MoonSong, post: 9302608, member: 6689464"] I at, some point, made a thread about this. [URL]https://www.enworld.org/threads/on-whether-sorcerers-and-wizards-should-be-merged-or-not-they-shouldnt.670175/[/URL] My point is, the sorcerer (charismatic, instinctive, emotional, magic as nature and not a choice) contrasts with the warlock (sneaky, roguey, cunning, magic as unnatural) and the wizard ( smart, scholarly, magic as an active ongoing choice) are just too different to coexist in the same class. If you make a class that seeks to preserve these themes, that class has to be extremely barebones with little active mechanical support -because active support for one of the themes might get in the way of the other- or basically be so segmented that you have essentially three classes that just happen to not be able to multiclass with each other, or worse basically be point buy. This is even more difficult because people are stuck on-the wizard-is-the-generic-one mindset when it is the most ultra-especiffic one. Sorcerer is 'I just have magic'. Warlock is 'my magic is borrowed from another entity', and the wizard is 'my magic is the result of years of study and I practice it everyday by studying my book'. How are the first two subflavors the last one? (If anything, the first one is the broadest, yet it still leaves behind some of the themes of the other two) There is not enough thematic room in the wizard class for the warlock and sorcerer. One can come with a subclass that kind of resembles superficially each and can stand for them in a pinch, but that fails to properly reflect these stories and themes. Like the subclass up here that claims to be a sorcerer subclass for the wizard, yet changes nothing about the base class and without further houserules cannot properly portray a sorcerer. The worst part is that it reduces sorcerers to just metamagic while doing away with all of the cool bloodline themes -for example-. * And that's the issue, like deciding that pastries are just a kind of bread and that to streamline things and you are going to only have one croisant covered in chocolate and filled with sour cream and have that stand for cookies, cupcakes, donuts and everything else. Or just look at how the warlord is doing in 5e. The Battlemaster has enough maneuvers to build a kind of warlord if you squint and you can use feats to kind of get there. And that is not precisely a warlord, because it is only a build, a one-of. And most importantly cannot cover the diversity of warlords that 4e allowed. (Let's not talk of lazy lord, it is just not possible) * Let me tell you, if you need extra rules for the subclass to kinda stand in for a class, then it isn't a successful merge, and if the rules are thorough enough that you can fully replace it, then you haven't removed the class, it is just now unwritten and implicit for no reason other than aesthetics. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
One thing I hate about the Sorcerer
Top