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[How to slay a dragon] Final battle against Cirothe
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<blockquote data-quote="BlivetWidget" data-source="post: 7833423" data-attributes="member: 6912801"><p>Let me start by saying I don't know anything about the adventure. Is level 7 really the module's recommended character level for fighting an adult red dragon? I'd like to point out that the CR of the adult red dragon is for the "base" model. The MM doesn't tell you the CR of an adult red dragon with innate spellcasting, nor for one in its lair - you would have to calculate that on your own. Obviously, both of these factors affect the CR (the monster building rules certainly tell you to account for spells and lair actions in calculating CR).</p><p></p><p>Now, CR is a tricky thing. A "this vs that" scenario depends very heavily on so many factors that you can't really rely on it. Take rot grubs for example, CR 1/2. Out in the open, vs characters who know what they are, that is a trivial encounter (CR 0). Vs surprised characters who don't know what they are or what to do about them? Could still be a deadly encounter at level 20 (CR 24). Some monsters seem to have been given unusually low CRs for their level of danger (I'm mostly thinking of monsters like rot grubs or succubi that can outright kill characters with no death saving throws).</p><p></p><p>People love to complain about the encounter building rules, but I have yet to see a viable alternative given the above swinginess. Some people tweak the encounter calculations, but it's never going to be reliable because so much depends on the scenario, terrain, tactics, dice, player knowledge... some of those can be averaged out, many can't.</p><p></p><p>With that out of the way, let's just use the existing system because it's what we have. An adult red dragon is considered a deadly encounter even at level 12. That's the base model, CR 17, with no spells or lair. Against level 7 character with average HP, a single use of its breath weapon could potentially take down most of the party. And since it can fly, it can pretty much engage on its own terms and just wait for the breath weapon to recharge.</p><p></p><p>If I were running the game, I would replace it with a young red dragon, which is between hard and deadly on the encounter scale, but max out the hit points, which would push it back over the edge into deadly. This is my general rule on big boss fights: lower the damage, increase the HP, and don't be afraid to fudge the HP if they're taking it down too fast or too slow. Have the enemy be arrogant and start with poor tactics to remove some of that bonus health. I think trading hits back and forth makes for a satisfying battle that's much less swingy than two glass cannons firing at each other until one of them gets hit and shatters. That's fine for regular encounters, but not for the boss fight.</p><p></p><p>Caveat: when I run a game, I'm playing with friends and I want to tell a story with their help. I don't want the characters to die. I'm not even neutral about it; I'm not some detached rules arbiter pretending to be the game's computer. I want them to win. I know this point of view is not popular amongst the vocal minority of forum members, so take that as you will.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BlivetWidget, post: 7833423, member: 6912801"] Let me start by saying I don't know anything about the adventure. Is level 7 really the module's recommended character level for fighting an adult red dragon? I'd like to point out that the CR of the adult red dragon is for the "base" model. The MM doesn't tell you the CR of an adult red dragon with innate spellcasting, nor for one in its lair - you would have to calculate that on your own. Obviously, both of these factors affect the CR (the monster building rules certainly tell you to account for spells and lair actions in calculating CR). Now, CR is a tricky thing. A "this vs that" scenario depends very heavily on so many factors that you can't really rely on it. Take rot grubs for example, CR 1/2. Out in the open, vs characters who know what they are, that is a trivial encounter (CR 0). Vs surprised characters who don't know what they are or what to do about them? Could still be a deadly encounter at level 20 (CR 24). Some monsters seem to have been given unusually low CRs for their level of danger (I'm mostly thinking of monsters like rot grubs or succubi that can outright kill characters with no death saving throws). People love to complain about the encounter building rules, but I have yet to see a viable alternative given the above swinginess. Some people tweak the encounter calculations, but it's never going to be reliable because so much depends on the scenario, terrain, tactics, dice, player knowledge... some of those can be averaged out, many can't. With that out of the way, let's just use the existing system because it's what we have. An adult red dragon is considered a deadly encounter even at level 12. That's the base model, CR 17, with no spells or lair. Against level 7 character with average HP, a single use of its breath weapon could potentially take down most of the party. And since it can fly, it can pretty much engage on its own terms and just wait for the breath weapon to recharge. If I were running the game, I would replace it with a young red dragon, which is between hard and deadly on the encounter scale, but max out the hit points, which would push it back over the edge into deadly. This is my general rule on big boss fights: lower the damage, increase the HP, and don't be afraid to fudge the HP if they're taking it down too fast or too slow. Have the enemy be arrogant and start with poor tactics to remove some of that bonus health. I think trading hits back and forth makes for a satisfying battle that's much less swingy than two glass cannons firing at each other until one of them gets hit and shatters. That's fine for regular encounters, but not for the boss fight. Caveat: when I run a game, I'm playing with friends and I want to tell a story with their help. I don't want the characters to die. I'm not even neutral about it; I'm not some detached rules arbiter pretending to be the game's computer. I want them to win. I know this point of view is not popular amongst the vocal minority of forum members, so take that as you will. [/QUOTE]
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