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How Does Surprise Work in D&D 5E?
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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8400084" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>That seems back to front. Surprise is an in-world phenomena that we want to resolve with the help of a game structure. I like the case of a hidden character wanting to ready an action as a lense on this.</p><p></p><p>Abbot: I want to ready to throw a pie at Player</p><p>DM: Are you throwing, or waiting, at this point</p><p>Abbot: I'm waiting</p><p>DM: Okay... let me know when you want to throw because at that point I might call for initiative</p><p></p><p>Time passes...</p><p></p><p>DM: Player, you percieve a hidden Abbot armed with a pie</p><p>Player: I'm going to rage and charge him</p><p>DM: Sounds like it is time to roll initiative</p><p></p><p>Alternative universe</p><p></p><p>AlertPlayer: I'm heading through Ambusher's Pass</p><p>DM: A few minutes in you have a bad feeling - something is up</p><p>AlertPlayer: I flee</p><p>DM: Okay (hidden initiative check to see if AlertPlayer will flee before Abbot can throw his pie)</p><p></p><p>Initiative is a Dexterity ability check. To my reading, the problems you describe fall under the general problem of meta-game information. A hidden ability check might be more appropriate in some cases than one made in the open.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It is very unclear why the DM announced that. What did they aim to convey? Did the player's passive perception reveal a hidden foe? Or did their alert feat clue them in to a hidden threat? Or did a hidden foe continue to wait before attacking (in which case, why has the DM decided to roll initiative?) Entering combat isn't intended to be speculative: you enter combat when and because you entered combat. It's worth also asking about specifics. What spell is foe supposed to be casting subtley? If it's <em>fireball </em>then it is likely time to roll initiative. If it's <em>nondetection</em>, then probably not.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't hate it, but at the same time for me it doesn't give full value to players who invest in more defensive features like perception or the alert feat. It's generous to the sword-and-board battle master in full plate, and less generous to the rogue in nothing but the alert feat and a winning smile. I want to acknowledge that to my observation players are divided about how they think all this should go.</p><p></p><p>When the slower character wants to jump into a fight, they tell me what they're doing and I tell them if it is time to roll initiative. If they roll low (which is what we mean by slower, so let's suppose they do) it means that - just like an iajutsu duel, or a shootout in the wild west - they went to make their move and their foe was quicker. Otherwise it feels like saying, no matter how preternatually quick and alert their foe is, they can never be quicker than a slower character who is much angrier than they are. I guess there are plenty of strange in-world results from game rules, but the one where slower characters benefit from being angrier isn't one I like that much <em>given</em> there is an alternative that I'm okay with. One might also assume an in-world pact among all possible foes. If someone goes to attack me I'm going to - try not to be attacked, attack back, etc - before they can do it!</p><p></p><p>I am advocating both viewing surprise and initiative as simply useful structures to help us resolve what happens, <em>and </em>being sincerely interested in what can emerge from the mechanics as written. That means I genuinely do want the assassin to be able to back out if they've lost their auto-crit. I don't want to apply the combat rules when there isn't a fight. I might need to make an ability check for a player when I want to hide information.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 8400084, member: 71699"] That seems back to front. Surprise is an in-world phenomena that we want to resolve with the help of a game structure. I like the case of a hidden character wanting to ready an action as a lense on this. Abbot: I want to ready to throw a pie at Player DM: Are you throwing, or waiting, at this point Abbot: I'm waiting DM: Okay... let me know when you want to throw because at that point I might call for initiative Time passes... DM: Player, you percieve a hidden Abbot armed with a pie Player: I'm going to rage and charge him DM: Sounds like it is time to roll initiative Alternative universe AlertPlayer: I'm heading through Ambusher's Pass DM: A few minutes in you have a bad feeling - something is up AlertPlayer: I flee DM: Okay (hidden initiative check to see if AlertPlayer will flee before Abbot can throw his pie) Initiative is a Dexterity ability check. To my reading, the problems you describe fall under the general problem of meta-game information. A hidden ability check might be more appropriate in some cases than one made in the open. It is very unclear why the DM announced that. What did they aim to convey? Did the player's passive perception reveal a hidden foe? Or did their alert feat clue them in to a hidden threat? Or did a hidden foe continue to wait before attacking (in which case, why has the DM decided to roll initiative?) Entering combat isn't intended to be speculative: you enter combat when and because you entered combat. It's worth also asking about specifics. What spell is foe supposed to be casting subtley? If it's [I]fireball [/I]then it is likely time to roll initiative. If it's [I]nondetection[/I], then probably not. I don't hate it, but at the same time for me it doesn't give full value to players who invest in more defensive features like perception or the alert feat. It's generous to the sword-and-board battle master in full plate, and less generous to the rogue in nothing but the alert feat and a winning smile. I want to acknowledge that to my observation players are divided about how they think all this should go. When the slower character wants to jump into a fight, they tell me what they're doing and I tell them if it is time to roll initiative. If they roll low (which is what we mean by slower, so let's suppose they do) it means that - just like an iajutsu duel, or a shootout in the wild west - they went to make their move and their foe was quicker. Otherwise it feels like saying, no matter how preternatually quick and alert their foe is, they can never be quicker than a slower character who is much angrier than they are. I guess there are plenty of strange in-world results from game rules, but the one where slower characters benefit from being angrier isn't one I like that much [I]given[/I] there is an alternative that I'm okay with. One might also assume an in-world pact among all possible foes. If someone goes to attack me I'm going to - try not to be attacked, attack back, etc - before they can do it! I am advocating both viewing surprise and initiative as simply useful structures to help us resolve what happens, [I]and [/I]being sincerely interested in what can emerge from the mechanics as written. That means I genuinely do want the assassin to be able to back out if they've lost their auto-crit. I don't want to apply the combat rules when there isn't a fight. I might need to make an ability check for a player when I want to hide information. [/QUOTE]
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