Level Up (A5E) Degree of Success/Failure - esp for Skill Checks

[rules.mechanic]

Unfortunately the DMG's "Degrees of failure" isn't in the SRD but, formally or informally, I think many tables consider the degree of success/failure when a Skill Check is rolled. It also often appears in modules as a sliding scale of outcomes if succeeding against a DC of 10, 15 or 20. Some tables may use a similar system for Saving Throws. Use for Attack Rolls is much rarer.

Rules that take the place of "Degrees of failure" could add crunch to the 5e skill system and should remain backward compatible. A simple model would borrow the DC 5 steps used for typical 5e DCs (Easy 10, Medium 15, Hard 20, etc):

Margin	Result	Descriptive / Qualitative
Fail by 10+	Complete failure	Now in a worse situation than started
Fail by 5+	Bad Failure	A small additional negative consequence
Fail by <5	Unsuccessful	No additional consequences
Exact roll	Just scraped it	Like the Success at A Cost optional rule from DMG
Succeed by <5	Successful	Core aim achieved, no additional bonus
Succeed by 5+	Good success	Enhanced effect, or a small bonus achievement
Succeed by 10+	Complete Success	Maximum effect, or a bonus achievement as big as the original aim

In theory this could be expanded to Saving Throws and even Attack Rolls:

Spoiler: Extended: Saving Throws & Attack Rolls

Margin	Saves that negate an effect	Saves that halve damage	Attacks* & damage dealing
Fail by 10+	Take maximum effect	Take maximum damage (all dice count as their highest possible roll)	Critical fumble
Fail by 5+	Enhanced effect (if taking damage: re-roll all low damage dice rolls once)	Re-roll all low damage dice rolls once (replaces their original rolls)	Fails, no damage
Fail by <5	Take usual effect	Take usual damage	Fails, no damage
Exact roll	Partial effect (if taking damage: half damage)	Half damage but re-roll all low damage dice rolls once	Half damage
Succeed by <5	Negate effect as usual	Half damage as usual	Usual damage
Succeed by 5+	Negates & automatic success for rest of day if same save type from same source	25% damage	Re-roll any number of damage dice once (replaces their original rolls)
Succeed by 10+	Negates & automatic success for rest of day if same source	No damage	Maximum damage (all dice count as their highest possible roll)

*if used for Attack Rolls, this would replace Critical Hit damage, although a natural 1 or 20 could count as a -10 or +10 margin

 

[aco175]

I do some of this with climbing where you do not fall if you fail the check by less than 5, you also do not climb higher. Not sure if I would allow you to climb your full movement if you made the check by 10. Sounds like it would not be a problem. I let the PC use disadvantage to move his full speed when climbing or moving over ice or such.

Some of this might also be good with saves. I'm mostly thinking of the thief power to take no damage from making a Dex save on a fireball or something. If the fighter made the check by 10 (or maybe rolled a 20) could/should he take no damage? Would this crap on the thief power? Seems like a cool reward, but could also be something like inspiration reward.

 

[Faolyn]

While I think that your table may be a wee bit too complicated for D&D (which generally avoids tables like this), I strongly agree that margins of success and failure should be A Thing.

I've created more than one monster or spell that uses a "if the save fails by 5 or more" caveat. That's probably the simplest way to do it--just have the effect listed in the description. Of course, that assumes LU is going to (re)publish all the spells and/or monsters.

Also note that, with monsters at least, a lot of effects already say that if you succeed on your save, you can't be affected by that thing again for 24 hours (which makes some of your success options moot), and that critical fumbles aren't actually a thing beyond auto-misses.

So, another possible version:

Inflicts damage, save fails by 5-9: Maximize X dice of damage. Where X could be 1, half the total, equal to the spell slot level, etc.

Inflicts damage, save fails by 10 or more: Either maximize all damage dice or add X number of damage dice to roll.

Inflicts damage, save succeeds by 10 or more: Roll X dice (either of the type the effect inflicts, or of a specific type) and subtract that from the damage. You don't get any special advantage if you save by 1-9.

Inflicts condition (other than poisoned), save fails by 5-9: Duration increases by X amount (1 minute to 10 minutes, 10 minutes to 1 hour, 1 hour to 1 day, 1 day to 1 week, etc.). If you would normally get to reroll your save at the beginning/end of your turn, you now reroll at the end of each minute, each 10 minutes, each 1 hour.

Inflicts condition (other than Poisoned), save fails by 10 or more: As above, and further saves made to end the condition are made at disadvantage.

Inflicts condition (other than Poisoned), save succeeds by 10 or more: Until you complete your next long rest, you have advantage on saving throws that inflict this condition, no matter the source. You don't get any special advantage if you save by 1-9.

Inflicts the Poisoned condition, save fails by 5-9: When you have to roll an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw, roll a dX and subtract that from your total. I suggest a d4.

Inflicts the Poisoned condition, save fails by 10 or more: As above, and your speed is reduced by 10 feet. If this reduces your speed to 10 feet or lower, you fall prone and can only crawl.

Inflicts the Poisoned condition, save succeeds by 10 or more. Until you complete your next long rest, you have advantage on saving throws against this type of poison. You don't get any special advantage if you save by 1-9.

...I realize that this table is likely just as complicated as yours.

Edit: Doesn't Pathfinder 2e only do margins of 10+ now, or does it also do 5+?

 

[rules.mechanic]

Thanks both, I think degrees of success/failure feels straightforward for Ability Checks since there are less other rules to consider there. The trickier bit comes if expanding out to Saving Throws etc.

I like both your examples @aco175 and the rogues's Evasion is still dramtically more effective for hard saves and since specific beats general, it also spares them from a bad miss!

@Jessica Wolfman , I agree about the table complexity, probably best just used as a way of laying things out for discussions like these!

And also agree that effects in monster/spell descriptions are just as good for saves etc and could work to similar guidelines, although generic rules might be easier for compatibility with other sources.

Good catch with the moot success options - I wanted to borrow existing mechanisms to fit existing scales and effects. It's related to that same issue of effects in descriptions versus generically, so would need to use the "specific beats general" rule for overlaps.

Fumbles aren't a real 5e thing but many groups use them in some way so I wanted to leave space for that - especially if someone defines a good rule (I like backfires for ability checks and magic, wrong target for ranged attacks, and opportunity attacks in melee unless rescued as a reaction or by losing your next attack)

I think your alternative damage scaling options are equally valid alternatives - there are probably a few different ways to go about this, and I think any could work. I especially like your idea of a category around saves for conditions.

I don't play Pathfinder but I have heard that criticals there are +10.

I should add that the Attack Roll degrees of success is a bit of a niche add-on so I'll maybe leave that and only go into it in a separate post if there's interest. But maybe I should briefly add that damage tiers effectively means armour-as-damage-reduction (was adapted from a longstanding house rule of ours to better fit success steps of 5).

 

[Morrus]

Pathfinder does indeed do +/- 10. Everything has a result for Critical Failure, Failure, Success, and Critical Success.

 

[RangerWickett]

rules.mechanic, I have been tinkering for about a year on a PF2/5e/4e hybrid where degrees of success are used for narratively dramatic purposes. In my system the attacker always rolls vs the defender's defense stat. PCs, and prominent monsters and NPCs have a small number of 'saves' which they can use once per encounter to downgrade an attack against them by one step: crit > success > miss > mishap. The saves also each have some perk, so when you use them it often represents a shift in the momentum of the battle.

Someone might be about to crit you, but you narrowly parry the blow (downgrading it to just a hit), and then you get to make a combat maneuver against them (like tripping or disarming). Or a wizard might downgrade a spell cast at them, and then charge up one of their own spells to be more powerful. Or a barbarian might downgrade the effect of a mind control effect and get an even greater burst of rage for a round.

Alas, I haven't really worked out the kinks. But I feel like it has potential.

 

[rules.mechanic]

Hi, I was going to say that might be out of scope for this thread (and I'm trying not to concentrate too much on the possible extension of this to Attack Rolls) but then realised that Attack Roll margins and A5E Combat Maneuvers can do something very similar to what you suggested. The Defensive Duelist feat (5e) or Expert Parry combat maneuver (A5E) allow you to use your Reaction to add your Proficiency Bonus to your AC when attacked, which should usually achieve the one step downgrade (although limited to players who have access to that feat or maneuver). Or you could have a different Maneuver, or other ability, that is Long Rest limited (or gives a lesser AC bonus) but also gives the perk (as a single Reaction).

(PS I see you said "defense stat". I think I'm with you there (we use AC -4 +PB, but also change HP scaling), but stylistically too big a step for an A5E and definitely one for a different thread!)