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Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Class Balance In A5E: How Much Damage Should A Damage Dealer Deal?
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8113708" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>You've got a big overestimation of "zone damage" most people call an area of effect, but sure lets look at that. Moonbeam is a second level concertation spell that deals 2d10 over a 5 foot radius=10x10 . The first round a caster might get 2 maybe even three baddies if lucky, the second round it's probably going to be more like 1 most rounds averaging out to 10-11 depending on if add the fractions or round down. In order to cast it, the caster needs to expend an action casting it rather than a cantrip like produce flame (1d8 avg 4.5 level 2 when 2nd level slots become available.) so that first round damage from the spell is more like +6 to +7. Yes moonbeam can keep working for a full minute where the druid caster is dealing 1d8 from produce flame with an action +2d10 from monbeam <em>if </em>the fight lasts that long but during that time a fighter with the greatsword used by the OP is dealing 2d6+3 for an average of 7-10 damage with the same depending on if the fraction adds or not. Ignoring the first round complexities & giving the caster a second action to cantrip+moonbeam for the sake of simplification puts it at ~14-15 damage/round over ten rounds while the fighter is doing 7-10 over those same rounds in a <em>seemingly</em> impressive split.</p><p></p><p>At level 2 a fight that lasts ten rounds probably has a serious & near certain chance of being beyond merely lethal though so lets jump to 5th where things drastically. Keeping that free action for the druid he's doing around 18-19 damage/round. The fighter bumped strength from +3 to +4, got second attack & picked up a +1 greatsword so deals 9-12 each attack for a total of 18-24 at will making the druid really start noticing the disparity of his rules bending nova damage falling so far behind the fighter's at will damage while wotc showers the fighter in magical gear like water in every HC adventure while mostly snubbing him the spellcasting druid. If the druid bumps moonbeam to one of his two third level slots his damage climbs from 18-19 up to 22-23/round for ten rounds twice per long rest. Then the class capable of getting a crit gets a crit & the 2/long rest rules bending nova damage that was barely managing to fit within the fighter's at will damage suddenly falls far short. No matter the spell that disparity only continues to grow even faster as the fighter gets the better gear he can expect to get over time & a third attack at 11 yet we have not even mentioned the HP spread, AC disparity, or the magic effects baked into heavier magic armors not found in lighter ones or how a single miss/resist impacts the druid massively more than the fighter to further widen the spread.</p><p></p><p>You could cry foul & say "well the fighter has a +1 weapon & the druid has nothing". That is a notable point that raises a second problem. Unlike LMoP, OoTA, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=6" target="_blank">CoS</a>, TYP, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=7" target="_blank">HoTDQ</a>,<a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=11" target="_blank"> RoT</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=35" target="_blank">dragonheist</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=36" target="_blank">DotMM</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=43" target="_blank">saltmarsh</a>, & likely others <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=48" target="_blank">Descent</a> manages to join <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=12" target="_blank">STK </a>& <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=10" target="_blank">PoTA</a> include<em> one</em> wand of the war mage +1 alongside numerous phenomenal weapons far better than just +1 to ensure that the disparity continues to widen even if the caster manages to get one. In fact, like the +1 & +2 weapons in those linked adventures the wand of the war mage +1 is not even magical enough to show up on the list of all magic items in HC on ddb filtered by HC. </p><p></p><p>However it's painfully obvious that you are largely ignoring what I write & how it related to the main point of disparity & just responding in a never ending gish gallop of shifting goalposts that ignore the problems related to the main point in order to argue over tangents that are drifting further & further from the point. It's ok to admit that the damage disparity is beyond the pale when combined with all the magic resists energy resists & massive treasure disparity but the gish gallop is just silly .</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8113708, member: 93670"] You've got a big overestimation of "zone damage" most people call an area of effect, but sure lets look at that. Moonbeam is a second level concertation spell that deals 2d10 over a 5 foot radius=10x10 . The first round a caster might get 2 maybe even three baddies if lucky, the second round it's probably going to be more like 1 most rounds averaging out to 10-11 depending on if add the fractions or round down. In order to cast it, the caster needs to expend an action casting it rather than a cantrip like produce flame (1d8 avg 4.5 level 2 when 2nd level slots become available.) so that first round damage from the spell is more like +6 to +7. Yes moonbeam can keep working for a full minute where the druid caster is dealing 1d8 from produce flame with an action +2d10 from monbeam [I]if [/I]the fight lasts that long but during that time a fighter with the greatsword used by the OP is dealing 2d6+3 for an average of 7-10 damage with the same depending on if the fraction adds or not. Ignoring the first round complexities & giving the caster a second action to cantrip+moonbeam for the sake of simplification puts it at ~14-15 damage/round over ten rounds while the fighter is doing 7-10 over those same rounds in a [I]seemingly[/I] impressive split. At level 2 a fight that lasts ten rounds probably has a serious & near certain chance of being beyond merely lethal though so lets jump to 5th where things drastically. Keeping that free action for the druid he's doing around 18-19 damage/round. The fighter bumped strength from +3 to +4, got second attack & picked up a +1 greatsword so deals 9-12 each attack for a total of 18-24 at will making the druid really start noticing the disparity of his rules bending nova damage falling so far behind the fighter's at will damage while wotc showers the fighter in magical gear like water in every HC adventure while mostly snubbing him the spellcasting druid. If the druid bumps moonbeam to one of his two third level slots his damage climbs from 18-19 up to 22-23/round for ten rounds twice per long rest. Then the class capable of getting a crit gets a crit & the 2/long rest rules bending nova damage that was barely managing to fit within the fighter's at will damage suddenly falls far short. No matter the spell that disparity only continues to grow even faster as the fighter gets the better gear he can expect to get over time & a third attack at 11 yet we have not even mentioned the HP spread, AC disparity, or the magic effects baked into heavier magic armors not found in lighter ones or how a single miss/resist impacts the druid massively more than the fighter to further widen the spread. You could cry foul & say "well the fighter has a +1 weapon & the druid has nothing". That is a notable point that raises a second problem. Unlike LMoP, OoTA, [URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=6']CoS[/URL], TYP, [URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=7']HoTDQ[/URL],[URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=11'] RoT[/URL], [URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=35']dragonheist[/URL], [URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=36']DotMM[/URL], [URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=43']saltmarsh[/URL], & likely others [URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=48']Descent[/URL] manages to join [URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=12']STK [/URL]& [URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-requires-attunement=&filter-effect-type=&filter-effect-subtype=&filter-has-charges=&filter-source=10']PoTA[/URL] include[I] one[/I] wand of the war mage +1 alongside numerous phenomenal weapons far better than just +1 to ensure that the disparity continues to widen even if the caster manages to get one. In fact, like the +1 & +2 weapons in those linked adventures the wand of the war mage +1 is not even magical enough to show up on the list of all magic items in HC on ddb filtered by HC. However it's painfully obvious that you are largely ignoring what I write & how it related to the main point of disparity & just responding in a never ending gish gallop of shifting goalposts that ignore the problems related to the main point in order to argue over tangents that are drifting further & further from the point. It's ok to admit that the damage disparity is beyond the pale when combined with all the magic resists energy resists & massive treasure disparity but the gish gallop is just silly . [/QUOTE]
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Class Balance In A5E: How Much Damage Should A Damage Dealer Deal?
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