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General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Class Balance In A5E: How Much Damage Should A Damage Dealer Deal?
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<blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 8084375" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p>So a few notes:</p><p></p><p>1) It would be good to get a small breakdown of more of your assumptions. For the casters, which spells are you using? For the battlemaster, which maneuver dice were you expecting? With the paladin, are you assuming a lot of strength, or less strength in favor of more charisma? There are a lot of gearheads on Enworld that have done a LOT of DPS work, so they are going to ask<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>2) One thing I think is telling is that the evoker wizard is one of the highest novas...and that's with only a 2 person per area effect assumption. If we push that assumption even a little higher, lets say 2.3 or 2.5 average....I'm sure that nova looks even stronger.</p><p></p><p>3) One of your assessments that I strongly disagree with. "<strong>Lesson 1:</strong> <strong><em>Character damage increases linearly with level.</em></strong> "</p><p></p><p>Looking at the data, I think its much better to say: "Character damage is mostly flat by tier, with strong bumps by tier".</p><p></p><p>This is a very different conclusion, and its important to the "feel" of the mechanics, because remember that Going from levels 5-10 lets say could be a LONG time for a game (it could in fact by the whole campaign). If character 1 is getting a damage bump every level (even if its small) while character 2 is not increasing at all.... it doesn't matter that 4 levels from now character 2 will get a large damage bump that will equal (or exceed) character 1. All character 2 will see is number 1 is getting cooler and they are not.</p><p></p><p>Put more simply....the journey is much more important than the ending. And a linear character damage increase is not the journey core 5e provides.</p><p></p><p>4) To your question, does combat damage matter? It matters in terms of the greater thing you noted .... each character needs a chance to shine. Damage is one way to do that... if I'm the big damage dealer of the group, I'm going to feel cool. If I do the least, there is the question of "am I pulling my weight?". But damage can be compensated for. I think this is where a lot of the "Monks are actually awesome" camp come in with Stunning Strike. We can look at DPS arguments all day long, but a monk player who gets to stun a key monster and let the party wail on them....they feel like a million bucks doesn't matter what the spreadsheet says about DPS and stun chances.</p><p></p><p>What this also leads in to me.... nova matters more than at-will. No one is going to comment about the fighter where the champion attacked 5 times "pretty good" and beat the monster. But they will absolutely remember the time the paladin got 2 smites in on one round, both were crits, and did hundreds of points of damage. The time the evoker caught 6 people in a fireball that he rolled super high damage on, and fried them to bits....that will live on in the gamer's memories for a long time.</p><p></p><p>So when considering damage, I absolutely think nova should be weighted much stronger than at-will, as that is what the players will <em>remember</em> about the experience, much more than any DPS spreadsheet would note.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Stalker0, post: 8084375, member: 5889"] So a few notes: 1) It would be good to get a small breakdown of more of your assumptions. For the casters, which spells are you using? For the battlemaster, which maneuver dice were you expecting? With the paladin, are you assuming a lot of strength, or less strength in favor of more charisma? There are a lot of gearheads on Enworld that have done a LOT of DPS work, so they are going to ask:) 2) One thing I think is telling is that the evoker wizard is one of the highest novas...and that's with only a 2 person per area effect assumption. If we push that assumption even a little higher, lets say 2.3 or 2.5 average....I'm sure that nova looks even stronger. 3) One of your assessments that I strongly disagree with. "[B]Lesson 1:[/B] [B][I]Character damage increases linearly with level.[/I][/B] " Looking at the data, I think its much better to say: "Character damage is mostly flat by tier, with strong bumps by tier". This is a very different conclusion, and its important to the "feel" of the mechanics, because remember that Going from levels 5-10 lets say could be a LONG time for a game (it could in fact by the whole campaign). If character 1 is getting a damage bump every level (even if its small) while character 2 is not increasing at all.... it doesn't matter that 4 levels from now character 2 will get a large damage bump that will equal (or exceed) character 1. All character 2 will see is number 1 is getting cooler and they are not. Put more simply....the journey is much more important than the ending. And a linear character damage increase is not the journey core 5e provides. 4) To your question, does combat damage matter? It matters in terms of the greater thing you noted .... each character needs a chance to shine. Damage is one way to do that... if I'm the big damage dealer of the group, I'm going to feel cool. If I do the least, there is the question of "am I pulling my weight?". But damage can be compensated for. I think this is where a lot of the "Monks are actually awesome" camp come in with Stunning Strike. We can look at DPS arguments all day long, but a monk player who gets to stun a key monster and let the party wail on them....they feel like a million bucks doesn't matter what the spreadsheet says about DPS and stun chances. What this also leads in to me.... nova matters more than at-will. No one is going to comment about the fighter where the champion attacked 5 times "pretty good" and beat the monster. But they will absolutely remember the time the paladin got 2 smites in on one round, both were crits, and did hundreds of points of damage. The time the evoker caught 6 people in a fireball that he rolled super high damage on, and fried them to bits....that will live on in the gamer's memories for a long time. So when considering damage, I absolutely think nova should be weighted much stronger than at-will, as that is what the players will [I]remember[/I] about the experience, much more than any DPS spreadsheet would note. [/QUOTE]
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Class Balance In A5E: How Much Damage Should A Damage Dealer Deal?
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