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Am I crazy? I've just gotten a hankering to play 4e again...
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8189856" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Well, HoML 1.0 did some of these things. It has Interlude and Challenge, there is no structured 'downtime', but normally that would happen during interludes. No checks are allowed during an Interlude, so all checks in HoML are part of a challenge.</p><p></p><p>HoML 1.0 has scaled success/failure. That was initially envisaged as just a 'degree of success', but I think it is more effective to interpret as something like PbtA "success with conditions" and "complete success". I think the attribute, position, effect model also has its appeal. I'm not sure if that is really a 'refinement' on the PbtA process, or just more applicable to the gritty "crapsack world" "things always go wrong" BitD tone. </p><p></p><p>HoML, currently, has 'Vitality Points', which I think would be better called 'Hero Points' since they drive everything. Running out simply limits your options pretty significantly. However, they are a daily resource, just like HS in 4e. Certainly there is room to consider the model of recovery and how that fits together with the other elements. So far the 4e model has served pretty well though. Certainly players spend their points considerately and their are ways to trade them for things like successes in a challenge.</p><p></p><p>HoML has a bit more general model than Theme, PP, ED, but the concept is preserved. Boons model things in a more flexible way, so you can attain things that are as trivial as some treasure, or as significant as dedicating yourself to a cause and acquiring a patron, complete with extra powers and such. The advantage mainly is a bit more flexibility than 4e has in terms of when these things happen narratively. 4e was a bit awkward here in terms of "oh, you're all level 11 now, go pick a PP." where in HoML it is much more organic to the story and to the character's path.</p><p></p><p>HoML has 'tiers', but they have little outright mechanical effect. There are less levels (20), so a lot less 'filler' is involved in the progression of characters than in stock 4e. "Mythic" PCs only happen at level 17, so that whole part of the game is one big capstone. </p><p></p><p>I'm not sure that 'heat' is really appropriate to HoML, although a character's level signifying how they will interact with the 'cosmic forces' of the mythic world could be seen as having a similar role.</p><p></p><p>The thing with clocks is, they are fine, but they represent everything as a single dimension of progress. The 4e-style SC system with its separate tallies of success and failure has the characteristic of 'bringing things to a head'. I mean, sure, a clock can tick down to one tick from failure, that's dramatic, but now success is many actions away. I guess you can pile together several clocks, that sounds a bit more complicated. I'm actually pretty satisfied with the SC mechanics that HoML is using now (there are some tweaks from the RC version in 4e in that there are ways to expend resources for auto successes within certain narrative constraints).</p><p></p><p>Overall the emphasis in 2.0, as far as it has been imagined so far, is to rework 'degree of success' in a more PbtA, or maybe FitD, style. That will be a more refined type of action resolution that matches the narrative focus better, but it will still have to live within a basically 4e style 'action sequence' (combat) model. I think that is quite doable.</p><p></p><p>Beyond that, I think making all dice thrown by players is just good for focus. Instead of 4e-style defenses HoML 2.0 has 'defensive feats', which are simply powers in 4e parlance which allow a specific attribute to provide a check to avoid the consequences of a GM action (IE an attack by a monster). This is pretty similar to how PbtA works. Obviously there are constraints on which defenses are appropriate to a given situation, but I haven't really worked that part out yet. Perhaps tags can help here (keywords basically).</p><p></p><p>As you can see, HoML 2.0 will be a good bit outside the realm of simply a 'hack of 4e', but it is still taking most of 4e's core model and simply making it more of a story game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8189856, member: 82106"] Well, HoML 1.0 did some of these things. It has Interlude and Challenge, there is no structured 'downtime', but normally that would happen during interludes. No checks are allowed during an Interlude, so all checks in HoML are part of a challenge. HoML 1.0 has scaled success/failure. That was initially envisaged as just a 'degree of success', but I think it is more effective to interpret as something like PbtA "success with conditions" and "complete success". I think the attribute, position, effect model also has its appeal. I'm not sure if that is really a 'refinement' on the PbtA process, or just more applicable to the gritty "crapsack world" "things always go wrong" BitD tone. HoML, currently, has 'Vitality Points', which I think would be better called 'Hero Points' since they drive everything. Running out simply limits your options pretty significantly. However, they are a daily resource, just like HS in 4e. Certainly there is room to consider the model of recovery and how that fits together with the other elements. So far the 4e model has served pretty well though. Certainly players spend their points considerately and their are ways to trade them for things like successes in a challenge. HoML has a bit more general model than Theme, PP, ED, but the concept is preserved. Boons model things in a more flexible way, so you can attain things that are as trivial as some treasure, or as significant as dedicating yourself to a cause and acquiring a patron, complete with extra powers and such. The advantage mainly is a bit more flexibility than 4e has in terms of when these things happen narratively. 4e was a bit awkward here in terms of "oh, you're all level 11 now, go pick a PP." where in HoML it is much more organic to the story and to the character's path. HoML has 'tiers', but they have little outright mechanical effect. There are less levels (20), so a lot less 'filler' is involved in the progression of characters than in stock 4e. "Mythic" PCs only happen at level 17, so that whole part of the game is one big capstone. I'm not sure that 'heat' is really appropriate to HoML, although a character's level signifying how they will interact with the 'cosmic forces' of the mythic world could be seen as having a similar role. The thing with clocks is, they are fine, but they represent everything as a single dimension of progress. The 4e-style SC system with its separate tallies of success and failure has the characteristic of 'bringing things to a head'. I mean, sure, a clock can tick down to one tick from failure, that's dramatic, but now success is many actions away. I guess you can pile together several clocks, that sounds a bit more complicated. I'm actually pretty satisfied with the SC mechanics that HoML is using now (there are some tweaks from the RC version in 4e in that there are ways to expend resources for auto successes within certain narrative constraints). Overall the emphasis in 2.0, as far as it has been imagined so far, is to rework 'degree of success' in a more PbtA, or maybe FitD, style. That will be a more refined type of action resolution that matches the narrative focus better, but it will still have to live within a basically 4e style 'action sequence' (combat) model. I think that is quite doable. Beyond that, I think making all dice thrown by players is just good for focus. Instead of 4e-style defenses HoML 2.0 has 'defensive feats', which are simply powers in 4e parlance which allow a specific attribute to provide a check to avoid the consequences of a GM action (IE an attack by a monster). This is pretty similar to how PbtA works. Obviously there are constraints on which defenses are appropriate to a given situation, but I haven't really worked that part out yet. Perhaps tags can help here (keywords basically). As you can see, HoML 2.0 will be a good bit outside the realm of simply a 'hack of 4e', but it is still taking most of 4e's core model and simply making it more of a story game. [/QUOTE]
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