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D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

pemerton

Legend
An incorporeal target, with which the fighter has no means to physically interact, is moved.
What incorporeal creature in 4e D&D can the fighter not physically interact with?

Or are you saying that killing something with a sword is not physical interaction?

Targets which are unaware of the attacker are moved. An invisible, silenced, fighter can use this power.
How hard do you think it is for a skilled invisible, silenced fighter to use their weapon to bundle their enemies into a group where they can then attack them?
 

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pemerton

Legend
The pull works regardless of circumstance, so long as the target is within range and fails their save. They could be on a castle wall, behind a rock, a wizard with zero chance of taking the fighter in melee, it doesn't matter. The rules always trump the fiction in 4e. That's always been the problem.
What save are you talking about?

As for forced movement, you don't seem all that familiar with the forced movement rules for 4e D&D. From the PHB pp 285-6:

When you pull a creature, each square you move it must bring it nearer to you.. . . You must have line of effect to any square you pull, push, or slide a creature into. . . . Forced movement can’t move a target into a space it couldn’t enter by walking. The target can’t be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.​

So I'm not sure how you're pulling enemies through rocks and walls.

As for the wizard - given their lack of skill in melee, why would they of all people be immune to being wrongfooted by a skilled warrior?
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
What incorporeal creature in 4e D&D can the fighter not physically interact with?

Or are you saying that killing something with a sword is not physical interaction?

How hard do you think it is for a skilled invisible, silenced fighter to use their weapon to bundle their enemies into a group where they can then attack them?
The fighter doesn't move when you use CaGI. How then are they "bundling" their enemies into a group, especially if they're invisible and silenced? It doesn't matter in 4e, because all that matters is what the rules widget reads.
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
What save are you talking about?

As for forced movement, you don't seem all that familiar with the forced movement rules for 4e D&D. From the PHB pp 285-6:

When you pull a creature, each square you move it must bring it nearer to you.. . . You must have line of effect to any square you pull, push, or slide a creature into. . . . Forced movement can’t move a target into a space it couldn’t enter by walking. The target can’t be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.​

So I'm not sure how you're pulling enemies through rocks and walls.

As for the wizard - given their lack of skill in melee, why would they of all people be immune to being wrongfooted by a skilled warrior?
From a distance? And what about the archer on the wall I mentioned? Do they just throw themselves off it to get closer to the fighter?
 

Voadam

Legend
I just thought of Come and Get It as

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pemerton

Legend
The fighter doesn't move when you use CaGI.
What do you mean? They are making an attack. They must have line of effect to their enemies, whom they can see (as per the ability description). It seems obvious to me that they're doing stuff, which probably includes moving their body and interacting with their opponents.

How then are they "bundling" their enemies into a group, especially if they're invisible and silenced?
By grabbing them, perhaps? By poking them with a sword? I am not a 7th level fighter, but my understanding is that one thing skilled and strong warriors are good at is using their own movements and bodies to force movements and reactions from their enemies.

I don't know how it is supposed to be more realistic that an invisible, silent warrior is unable to interact with enemies.
 

soviet

Hero
Targets which have a movement of 0 or 1 squares, or which are paralyzed or entangled, or sleeping, are moved.

An incorporeal target, with which the fighter has no means to physically interact, is moved.

Targets which are unaware of the attacker are moved. An invisible, silenced, fighter can use this power.

TomB

The onus is on the player to explain what they're doing though, right? You don't expect players to just say 'I use come and get it' with no other explanation, especially where it might not be obvious how it would work. Just like you probably wouldn't accept 'I use diplomacy' with no other explanation.

I agree that something like paralysis probably shouldn't work, unless there's a very good explanation offered. But the sleeping one is easy - I wake them up. The incorporeal one is easy - I say something to enrage/lure them. The people are unaware of you one is easy - I make them aware of me. The entangled one is easy - they find a way to get out, or I release them.

I played a 4e fighter with Come and Get It and I always found a good justification. I used it against some sword wraiths by drawing on the power of my magic sword which has anti-undead powers. I used it against some wolf monsters by using my barbarian multiclass stuff to emit a primal roar of challenge against them. I don't recall an instance where I used it and there wasn't a decent explanation.
 

pemerton

Legend
From a distance? And what about the archer on the wall I mentioned? Do they just throw themselves off it to get closer to the fighter?
As I said, you don't seem to be familiar with the forced movement rules. If there is an obstacle between the fighter and the archer (like a castle wall) then no forced movement occurs.

And when you say "distance" you mean 10 feet - that is, the two squares between the fighter's position and the enemy's position.

If the archer is behind a low wall that doesn't constitute an obstacle, I would imagine the fighter leapt up and knocked them down! (The archer gets a saving throw, as per the rules for forced movement over an edge.)
 

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