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D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I mean, I assume Melian was much, much, much more powerful than any of the Istari and she didn't break the world.
And Osse and Aurian and Eonwe and...

There were a lot of powerful Maia who were just short of the Valar in power
In any case, I wonder how what Gandalf did (besides exercising restraint) would compare to what a mere elf like Fingolfin could have done as far as helping.
Many of the 1st age Noldor rivaled the Maia in power or surpassed many of them. It took multiple Balrogs to take down Feanor and Fingolfin went toe to toe with Morgoth, albeit a weakened Morgoth.
 

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They were forbidden to show their majesty and power because the Valar feared that the elves and men would follow the Istari, rather than be guided by the Istari to defeat Sauron. It wasn't because they would break the world.
To Tolkien that's the same thing - they'd become tyrants, willing or unwilling, the thing he hated above all. Also the previous Maiar had certainly wrecked up the joint.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
To Tolkien that's the same thing - they'd become tyrants, willing or unwilling, the thing he hated above all. Also the previous Maiar had certainly wrecked up the joint.
Most of them. I'd argue that Melian and Bombadil(who absent anything conclusive I consider maia) didn't wreck the joint.
 

Most of them. I'd argue that Melian and Bombadil(who absent anything conclusive I consider maia) didn't wreck the joint.
Bombadil, who knows what he is exactly, he seems to predate the Maiar! If we believe him anyway.

What he undoubtedly is, is Tolkien's self-insert character, if not in terms of personality, in terms of political views - this is very well-illustrated in Tolkien's letters, where he espouses utopian anarchism of a rather Unabomber-ish kind (largely minus violence, though he does support people "dynamiting factories" - a quote). His views seems to that the ideal is utopian anarchy where we live in the forest with our hot spouses, or failing that, rural quasi-anarchy as per the hobbits (who are very capable of self-organising as needed but seem to lack permanent leaders for the most part), and failing that, a distant third place is having a "good monarch" like Aragorn - but in one letter he does refer to Aragorn as "Sauron in miniature" or something very close to that, so he's clearly a little uncomfortable with him.

And yeah Melian I don't think caused any wrecking (her kids is another story entirely).
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Words matter and I don't recall ever once Gandalf being called an angel in LOTR. Certainly not in the primary trilogy and its prequel.

Please provide the chapter where he is called an Angel if he is in fact called one.

A well kept secret doesn't make the secret non existent. He wasn't called a Maia in the Lord of the Rings, but we know from the Silmarillion that he was one.

IIRC, this appears in Unfinished Tales, part 4, "The Istari".
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Bombadil, who knows what he is exactly, he seems to predate the Maiar! If we believe him anyway.

What he undoubtedly is, is Tolkien's self-insert character, if not in terms of personality, in terms of political views - this is very well-illustrated in Tolkien's letters, where he espouses utopian anarchism of a rather Unabomber-ish kind (largely minus violence, though he does support people "dynamiting factories" - a quote). His views seems to that the ideal is utopian anarchy where we live in the forest with our hot spouses, or failing that, rural quasi-anarchy as per the hobbits (who are very capable of self-organising as needed but seem to lack permanent leaders for the most part), and failing that, a distant third place is having a "good monarch" like Aragorn - but in one letter he does refer to Aragorn as "Sauron in miniature" or something very close to that, so he's clearly a little uncomfortable with him.

And yeah Melian I don't think caused any wrecking (her kids is another story entirely).
Bombadil made that claim, but Eru was first and then made the Ainur(maiar and valar) who then created the universe via song. That doesn't really leave room for Bombadil to come into being prior to the Ainur. Now many Ungoliant and Bombadil were brought into being by the song, or maybe they are a different sort of Ainur created by Eru, but I don't think that either of them predate them.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
IIRC, this appears in Unfinished Tales, part 4, "The Istari".
Yes. We learn about the secret there, but that would mean that even though we don't know it while reading LotR, the Istari were maia then as well. It was just a well kept secret.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Bombadil made that claim, but Eru was first and then made the Ainur(maiar and valar) who then created the universe via song. That doesn't really leave room for Bombadil to come into being prior to the Ainur. Now many Ungoliant and Bombadil were brought into being by the song, or maybe they are a different sort of Ainur created by Eru, but I don't think that either of them predate them.
Spirits of the world itself somehow (and thus part of the song)?
 

I don't think that either of them predate them.
I mean, Tolkien seems to back Tom Bombadil here, but seems to see Bombadil as like unto the Chad meme, "Refuses to elaborate further" - specifically he's intended to be at odds with the general story and impossible to quite fit into it.

Oh indeed someone already did that meme:

1693854479724.png
 


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