D&D General Baldur's Gate 3 will now be releasing August 3rd on PC and September 6th on PS5, increased level cap, race & class details and more

Ruin Explorer said:

Beyond being a white man, he doesn't fit that at all though.

He speaks like Richard Ayoade's character Moss from the IT Crowd, rather than in a commanding way. He has mucho hair, and it's fancy. He's not physical/strong/pushy (despite his character model being hilariously ripped, because they all are). He has no military background, even in the past. He's a Nice Guy (TM) of the worst kind personality-wise, rather than a Bad Boy or just attractive/charismatic.

So I think we have to rule out Stereotypical Main Character in his case - if anything he's slightly closer to Type 2 Main Character, the Spider-Man/Jedi Survivor-type. But he is a white male human, and that's the real thing pushing him into the lead origin-character-wise, I would personally suggest.

Astarion I think you're right on - he's even further from the stereotype and is that kind of fancy foppish Brit who Americans are confused by and think has to be gay (the vast majority of people who talk like that are straight though). But he's still extremely close to Karlach in popularity because he's a vampire and funny as naughty word.

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All I'm hearing is that Gale is exactly the kind of character wangrods who identify themselves with Marty Stu types would like, the fantasy equivalent of Ted Mosby or Ross Geller in romcoms. I'd say it proves @EzekielRaiden's point more than disproving it!

(I say this is as someone who used to identify with Ted and Ross when I was younger, and wow that was a horrible way to see relationships).

Ruin Explorer said:

Re: romance flags I think there's a lot that they need to double-check there, like an absolute ton. In EA it had a ton of issues, and it seems to here too. They also need to consider re-wording at least one of the prompts, because it replaces "Yo I'm breaking up with you" with "I'd like to talk about 'us'" which basically has the same meaning at one point in a romance, yet if you carefully save and try the latter, it leads to a bunch of other, positive options.

I think there are other issues too - as I may have mentioned Karlach just gains opinion ridiculously slower than everyone else for me, it's like she's got some % modifier significantly lowering it. I've seen more "Karlach approves" over the last 20 hours than literally any other character (albeit I think it starts hiding "approves" once they hit 100, which is kind of crap), because we're on the same wavelength about most stuff (approximately Chaotic Good), and she's still on like 70-something. Literally Shadowheart is way higher and I've had her in the party far less (like, what, 15% as much?), and been less nice to her.

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I definitely think the romance mechanics needed more time in the oven. Even the romance writing needed it, I think. I really dislike how you can't tell where some of your dialogue options will lead you. A lot of people thought Gale's magic show was a friendly thing (myself included), and I locked myself out of romance with Karlach because I did not realise that one of the options I chose made it seem like I had no interest. While a lot of the writing is stellar (and I'm quite enjoying Shadowheart's romance so far), it's clear that there was a miscommunication when it comes to how the writers expected we'd engage with some of the romance scenes, and what the players thought would be there as options (and where those options would lead).

Ondath said:

I definitely think the romance mechanics needed more time in the oven. Even the romance writing needed it, I think. I really dislike how you can't tell where some of your dialogue options will lead you. A lot of people thought Gale's magic show was a friendly thing (myself included), and I locked myself out of romance with Karlach because I did not realise that one of the options I chose made it seem like I had no interest. While a lot of the writing is stellar (and I'm quite enjoying Shadowheart's romance so far), it's clear that there was a miscommunication when it comes to how the writers expected we'd engage with some of the romance scenes, and what the players thought would be there as options (and where those options would lead).

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They do seem to push some romance options ridiculously early. And sometimes, there seems to be a logjam of camp scenes so that it feels like you need to rest a few times in a row just to clear the backlog. After being propositioned by Karlach for "next time we rest", the subsequent two rest periods have been a dream sequence with our guardian angel followed by Wyll inviting me to dance (seriously impaired by the fact that he did so while standing inside a massive pile of crates).

deganawida said:

Over 93% rolled custom characters? Well, may that will put to bed the belief that origin characters are better (but, given that this is Larian’s second game with them, probably not).

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I do think that DOS2 characters it was better to pick one of the origin stories rather than custom. But I'm biased and love the Red Prince, if you play him as I always did. Namely, full-on hero mode, genuinely noble soul buried under taught bigotry, ignorance, and inattention (all of which he could have overcome by himself, but did not, making him more interesting than a flat "just always perfectly good" person.)


I sort of have a thing for stories like that. I quite enjoyed the Sith Warrior and Inquisitor storylines in SWTOR, for example, because they present that "subversive good" angle. Might be part of why I wanted to play Dark Urge. I dislike grimdark BS, but I enjoy facing temptation squarely and saying "no." Particularly if that temptation isn't just "do evil," but rather "do evil and get fancy powers etc." Then it's not just the character, it is me being tempted.

Ondath said:

All I'm hearing is that Gale is exactly the kind of character wangrods who identify themselves with Marty Stu types would like, the fantasy equivalent of Ted Mosby or Ross Geller in romcoms. I'd say it proves @EzekielRaiden's point more than disproving it!

(I say this is as someone who used to identify with Ted and Ross when I was younger, and wow that was a horrible way to see relationships).

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Rewatching Friends during the pandemic, Ross is actually considerably less awful than I remembered him, I mean he's got issues but I remembered him as some kind of freak. Whereas GOOD GOD Chandler is completely awful. We used to think that guy was funny? Damn. Misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, fatphobia, weird self-hate, that dude just had it all, all the time. Joey is exactly as you remember him. All the women have a ton of internalized misogyny too that really sticks out. It still manages to be mostly funny.

My point isn't that wangrods won't identify with him - absolutely they will - just that he doesn't fit the Stereotypical Main Character mould, which is to say this dude:



They're butcher, tougher, generally older (albeit not by much in some cases), less erudite, talk way tougher, and so on.

Ondath said:

A lot of people thought Gale's magic show was a friendly thing (myself included), and I locked myself out of romance with Karlach because I did not realise that one of the options I chose made it seem like I had no interest.

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I have to say, I don't think the Gale line was even slightly a writing failure.

I think that was a massive writing success. A huge one. Because it doesn't pander to straight men who have never been hit on by a Nice Guy in their life, and haven't paid attention to Nice Guys they know when those men hit on women. Now they know.

For me, who both has been hit on by a Nice Guy (who almost graduated to a stalker, but that's a whole other story) and has paid attention to that, it was immediately obvious, 100% this was a "sex thing". Literally the first thing I thought was "this dude wants to show me his dick". And I was 100% right. He even says it kind of suggestively! That so many straight dudes don't get this and are horrified should be treated as a learning moment for what women have to deal with constantly. Not pushed off as "bad writing". Own your mistake, don't put it on the writers.

But that's about that specific bit of dialogue.

Your general point that that there are unclear dialogue options, particularly re: initiating romance, is correct. It's just this issue is exacerbated by a bunch of straight dudes (not calling you out here specifically but just straight guys generally) who lack the limited ability to pick up on innuendo even I, a nerdy straight guy with ADHD, does have. I will credit endless hours of Round the Horne (particularly Julian and Sandy) and Carry On movies with perhaps sharpening my senses here lol. Interestingly there's a scene in a brothel later which like, the dialogue, the delivery, and even the voices the VAs are using are all perfect Carry On movie even the character appearances kind of are, so I think it might be an homage.

I think one thing I'd change would be to put a heart symbol on romance initiators. I know they probably intentionally avoided symbols on dialogue to increase immersion/reading and decrease mindlessly clicking of correct symbol, and that's smart, but they're very concerned about consent and so on, and I think it would do the game a service (and a lot of slightly shocked straight guys lol) a service to put that on the initiator dialogue.

Also there are just bugs though - like I never said anything remotely flirty to Halsin (I mean, genuinely, I barely spoke to him at the party) and then next time I talk to him my PC is trying to apologise for "coming on too strong" and it's like, man what?

EzekielRaiden said:

I quite enjoyed the Sith Warrior and Inquisitor storylines in SWTOR, for example, because they present that "subversive good" angle.

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Sith Warrior seems custom-made on the assumption you'll go subversive good, it's far more interesting that way, but Sith Inquisitor works way, way better if you lean into the POWER OF THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE!

Ruin Explorer said:

Also there are just bugs though - like I never said anything remotely flirty to Halsin (I mean, genuinely, I barely spoke to him at the party) and then next time I talk to him my PC is trying to apologise for "coming on too strong" and it's like, man what?

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Yes, I just saw this as well and was confused for a second as I chose exactly 1 option the first time 'go mingle' and then the next time I was too foward and/or drunk? lol

Its forgivable, and I'm sure (please!) Larian will tighten some of this stuff up over the coming months.

Scribe said:

Yes, I just saw this as well and was confused for a second as I chose exactly 1 option the first time 'go mingle' and then the next time I was too foward and/or drunk? lol

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Yeah that's what I picked as well!

I've found two bugged magic items so far - one is supposed to put a cloud on enemies you poison, gassing their friends, from the wording, but it actually gasses only your team if you poison an enemy, so it's purely disadvantageous, they got the hostility the wrong way around I guess, the other is supposed to drop when you take damage, but also seems to drop when you get buffed, in any way, including by yourself!

Ruin Explorer said:

I think one thing I'd change would be to put a heart symbol on romance initiators. I know they probably intentionally avoided symbols on dialogue to increase immersion/reading and decrease mindlessly clicking of correct symbol, and that's smart, but they're very concerned about consent and so on, and I think it would do the game a service (and a lot of slightly shocked straight guys lol) a service to put that on the initiator dialogue.

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Yeah, that'd be a good call.

Ruin Explorer said:

Also there are just bugs though - like I never said anything remotely flirty to Halsin (I mean, genuinely, I barely spoke to him at the party) and then next time I talk to him my PC is trying to apologise for "coming on too strong" and it's like, man what?

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Yeah, Halsin at the party was just weird - it felt like he was hitting on me immediately even though we hadn't exchanged even half a dozen lines of dialogue (I didn't have him accompany me against the goblin leaders), so I too just brushed him off. Eventually I had to choose that "coming on too strong" dialogue option just to progress his conversation, but it felt decidedly weird. The game in general just seems to do a bad job of tracking specific triggers for quest and dialogue events, leading to some out-of-context moments.

Ruin Explorer said:

Sith Warrior seems custom-made on the assumption you'll go subversive good, it's far more interesting that way, but Sith Inquisitor works way, way better if you lean into the POWER OF THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE!

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Sith Operative was my favourite on the Sith side, really felt like the Sith empire was on track to be a well-regulated and effective society, if only it wasn't for all the darn Sith.

MarkB said:

Sith Operative was my favourite on the Sith side, really felt like the Sith empire was on track to be a well-regulated and effective society, if only it wasn't for all the darn Sith.

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Imperial Agent, you mean right?

And yes they were absolutely incredibly well-written and interesting, perspective-wise. It was very easy to play one who wasn't needlessly cruel but was still part of a bureaucratic machine of oppression.

I still think SWTOR has a much better model for multiplayer RPGs than even Baldur's Gate 3 does. The conversations with NPCs which weren't specific to the questline for that class were designed so you rolled to see who got to make the decision on what to say (I believe you could also pass), and that was very dramatic and effective, especially with me playing a restrained and reasonable Imperial Agent and my wife playing a full-on all caps DARK SIDE Sith Inquisitor. I'd played an Inquisitor a ton but had been trying to play them nice and she showed me very clearly that wasn't the cool way to play them. It kept everyone involved too.

Whereas BG3 whoever initiates any convo has 100% control of said convo. Other people can indicate what they think you should pick, but it's purely advisory. I think in an ideal world they'd have had two kinds of conversation - private conversations, which other people might or might not see but only had one character making the decisions, and group conversations where everyone could roll off - and major story decisions should probably have been the latter.

Ruin Explorer said:

Rewatching Friends during the pandemic, Ross is actually considerably less awful than I remembered him, I mean he's got issues but I remembered him as some kind of freak. Whereas GOOD GOD Chandler is completely awful. We used to think that guy was funny? Damn. Misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, fatphobia, weird self-hate, that dude just had it all, all the time. Joey is exactly as you remember him. All the women have a ton of internalized misogyny too that really sticks out. It still manages to be mostly funny.

My point isn't that wangrods won't identify with him - absolutely they will - just that he doesn't fit the Stereotypical Main Character mould, which is to say this dude:

View attachment 292348

They're butcher, tougher, generally older (albeit not by much in some cases), less erudite, talk way tougher, and so on.


I have to say, I don't think the Gale line was even slightly a writing failure.

I think that was a massive writing success. A huge one. Because it doesn't pander to straight men who have never been hit on by a Nice Guy in their life, and haven't paid attention to Nice Guys they know when those men hit on women. Now they know.

For me, who both has been hit on by a Nice Guy (who almost graduated to a stalker, but that's a whole other story) and has paid attention to that, it was immediately obvious, 100% this was a "sex thing". Literally the first thing I thought was "this dude wants to show me his dick". And I was 100% right. He even says it kind of suggestively! That so many straight dudes don't get this and are horrified should be treated as a learning moment for what women have to deal with constantly. Not pushed off as "bad writing". Own your mistake, don't put it on the writers.

But that's about that specific bit of dialogue.

Your general point that that there are unclear dialogue options, particularly re: initiating romance, is correct. It's just this issue is exacerbated by a bunch of straight dudes (not calling you out here specifically but just straight guys generally) who lack the limited ability to pick up on innuendo even I, a nerdy straight guy with ADHD, does have. I will credit endless hours of Round the Horne (particularly Julian and Sandy) and Carry On movies with perhaps sharpening my senses here lol. Interestingly there's a scene in a brothel later which like, the dialogue, the delivery, and even the voices the VAs are using are all perfect Carry On movie even the character appearances kind of are, so I think it might be an homage.

I think one thing I'd change would be to put a heart symbol on romance initiators. I know they probably intentionally avoided symbols on dialogue to increase immersion/reading and decrease mindlessly clicking of correct symbol, and that's smart, but they're very concerned about consent and so on, and I think it would do the game a service (and a lot of slightly shocked straight guys lol) a service to put that on the initiator dialogue.

Also there are just bugs though - like I never said anything remotely flirty to Halsin (I mean, genuinely, I barely spoke to him at the party) and then next time I talk to him my PC is trying to apologise for "coming on too strong" and it's like, man what?


Sith Warrior seems custom-made on the assumption you'll go subversive good, it's far more interesting that way, but Sith Inquisitor works way, way better if you lean into the POWER OF THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE!

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I was wondering what was wrong with Gale since I ran with a female character, but I hit on Gale first. Now I almost want to create another female character and ignore him to see what happens.

UngainlyTitan said:

I was wondering what was wrong with Gale since I ran with a female character, but I hit on Gale first. Now I almost want to create another female character and ignore him to see what happens.

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Yeah if you treat him even like a human being, he's going to be in love with you in a very one-sided way lol.