D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Chaosmancer]

which is nonsense IMO, potent mundane martials can exist, they managed it in 4e after all.

Except, in 4e, no one was actually mundane. A high level fighter became a demigod, they didn't just become a mundane fighter.

 

[Chaosmancer]

There's not a lot of good Cleric spells that really support an Invoker character though. And even if you add spells via a Subclass, the Cleric subclass design doesn't give you many new spells to work with. And if you just add those spells to the Cleric list to add Invoker flavor, nothing stops any Cleric from taking them so in the end, in the attempt to create a different playstyle (Divine Controller/Blaster) you just powered up the Cleric.

Somewhat fair. I think the Cleric does need an expanded spell list, their current selection is very sparse.

But, I don't think there is a point in trying to create a "different playstyle" because I think the Divine Controller/Blaster style DOES exist. It is just poorly supported. You can take Guiding Bolt, Inflict Wounds, Detect Evil and Good, Command, Shield of Faith (to cast on self) and Protection from evil and Good (self), then Blindness/Deafness, Hold Person, Spiritual Weapon, and you are well on your way to filling the concept in.

Again, if we are choosing between "make an entirely new class" or "give the cleric more spells that blast or create control"... I don't see the need for an entire divine class, with an entire new spell list of those spells... I mean, we are making the spells anyways aren't we? Why not just give them to the cleric in the first place, they won't really raise its power level very much.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Dragon sorcerer subclass spell list
Cantrip - Primal Savagery, but the option to use your dragon type instead of acid
1st - absorb elements, chromatic orb
2nd - Alter Self, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Fear, Fly
4th - Polymorph, Conjure minor elementals
5th - Conjure Elements, Summon Draconic Spirit

Not a bad list (though you did use Chromatic Orb twice), I did this

Sorcerous Dragon Spells
1st: Absorb Elements (includes poison damage), Identify
3rd: Dragon's Breath, Alter Self
5th: Fear, Fly
7th: Elemental Bane, Leonmund's Secret Chest
9th: Creation, Dominate Person

I wanted to lean more into the hoard, wealth and dragon presence aspects than just elemental power.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The key is there are 2 popular types of magic users D&D doesn't do.

1) The Harry-potteresque cantrip spammer.

I am not sure anyone actually WANTS DnD casters to do this though. Like, even most mages in fiction don't work like Potter and the gang, and the Harry Potter universe, while still very popular, is stagnating and falling out of favor.

I think there is space for a "cantrip spammer" but....

2) The Marvel/DC/Anime mage with a few to a dozen powers that they have extreme control or mastery of due to their closeness to it or their genetic/bloodline

I think it fits better with the concept of a mage who has a few specialized powers that they have an extreme mastery or control of. This is how I picture KibblesTasty's Psion as a general concept. And I think this is a design I would like to see used for the Sorcerer, because I think it does support their themes better than traditional casting.

 

[Minigiant]

I am not sure anyone actually WANTS DnD casters to do this though. Like, even most mages in fiction don't work like Potter and the gang, and the Harry Potter universe, while still very popular, is stagnating and falling out of favor.

I think there is space for a "cantrip spammer" but....

It's more a playstyle necessary. An easy mode caster. A caster who mostly spams.

Then you use subclasses to match in lore specialization (warmages, stage magicians, logistics mages) or copying magic from other IP.

Just make a caster class that doesn't use any from of Vancian magic for offense and defense. The Warlock still relies of spell slots

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Except, in 4e, no one was actually mundane. A high level fighter became a demigod, they didn't just become a mundane fighter.

Only if you chose that.

You could also be:

• A legendary sovereign, whose descendants would rule wisely and well for centuries to come, leaving your mark nigh unto forever
• An undying warrior, who has faced death and found it wanting, soul and body fused into one unbreakable union
• A warrior whose armor is as her skin--and whose skin is as her armor, inseparable, unyielding to any blow
• An everlasting defender, who might become the spirit that defends a land, the watcher at the edge of existence, or some similar fate
• A master of martial technique so transcendent, you empower the techniques passed to your students, and theirs, and theirs, down the ages

And those are just the examples that require you to be a Fighter and/or a Martial character. There are others, depending on exactly how your character came together over the 20 levels preceding Epic tier. For example, the Dark Wanderer, which is technically for Rangers but actually works quite well for Defenders that face large numbers of weaker opponents.

Further, if an otherwise-mundane Fighter, who has never done a single magical thing, becomes a demigod, what does that mean? Does it mean they were somehow magic all along and just somehow never showed even the tiniest evidence of it? Or does it mean that "mundane" and "demogod" are not as far apart as you want to assert? Because that latter thing is kind of woven all throughout 4e. An extremely myth-like spirit: the difference between "mundane" and "magical" is a purely modern contrivance, something the Ancient and Medieval mind would have found deeply weird. The sharp, absolute separation between what we today would call "science," "witchcraft," and "sacrament" did not exist before the Renaissance. That's (part of) why Apuleius had to defend himself against a (completely secular) charge of witchcraft in 158 AD.

Just as Guan Yu's legend grew from peerless mortal warrior to literal god of war. Just as Psyche was worshipped above Venus, and became herself an immortal goddess by labor and by grace. Apotheosis of mortals, by mortal deeds, was hardly considered that special. Those deeds just had to be skills that, despite being mundane in nature, exceeded mundanity in their prowess and impact.

Or, as I have so often called it, the transmundane: that seed which grows from mortal soil and mundane roots, but which rises to touch the firmament.

 

[CreamCloud0]

By removing 99% of caster power - which didn’t go over well.

But martials DID have power in that system right? Quite a bit of it, Is there any reason WHY you couldn’t establish powerful AEDU martials in 5e alongside the current spellcasters as they are?

 

[FrogReaver]

But martials DID have power in that system right?

Relative to current casters? No.

Quite a bit of it, Is there any reason WHY you couldn’t establish powerful AEDU martials in 5e alongside the current spellcasters as they are?

Yes. 5e currently has non-supernatural martials. You cannot have non-supernatural martials and supernatural martials on the power level of full casters be balanced with non-supernatural martials and have the thematics make sense together.

You either end up with non-supernatural warriors in only name, or supernatural warriors whose supernatural powers cannot even surpass the non-supernaturals. Makes for absolutely terrible thematics.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Ideally I like the base class martials being mundane in tiers 1-2, while being supernatural in tiers 3 and 4.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Ideally I like the base class martials being mundane in tiers 1-2, while being supernatural in tiers 3 and 4.

Yes, that is my preferred solution too.